Competitive vs Fun: discussion (was 40K 6th Ed rules questions, old)

[Inquisitor Valeria]

I gotta say I'm with Ray on this one. If the FAQ says it's a modification to their "base characteristic" then I think they've been as explicit as they're going to get on the matter. Hopping on a Thunderwolf alters the profile itself, making the rider always S5. There is no standard situation (special rules of enemy psychic powers or wargear or whatever notwithstanding) in which he would attack at any less than S5. He can't get off the wolf and fight separately, so the wolf's strength becomes part of "the model"'s strength.

Furious Charge is a temporary modifier (a bonus if certain in-game criteria are met, if you will) and therefore follows the normal flow of multiply then add/subtract then fixed number. A model with Furious Charge does not get the +1 S if they are charged or in the second round of close combat, so it's a very different situation.

[Genestealer]

What Mike said. I just didn't have the time, effort, or caring to put it all together so neatly.

BTW, sorry to hear about the difficulties Mike, you've always been a great guy to play against.

[Genestealer]

Hmm I read that to fast I. Know the Nobz is correct but not sure about the Tunderwolf...Ray may be right. More reading for me now

PS. I would like to have this recorded for the sake of posterity.

[Genestealer]

I believe you and Liz are correct.

[Rorschach]

And it turned into a 6 hour argument instead of gaming or fun. The spirit of the game, the forging of the narrative, the cooperative aspect is gone for me, and honestly, I haven't seen it for a long time.

My two honest first thoughts on your post, Mike:

- I'm horrified if you actually are quitting, and for those reasons. That would sap about half my desire to play the game again, to know I couldn't play one of the finest gaming gentlemen in this area.

- For anyone arguing with you 6hrs or even 6 minutes over an issue like this, the problem is with THEM, not the game.

In a new edition like this, there's bound to be new concepts and terminology. The words "base characteristic" are one of them. If some folks can't adjust or deal, or reach an impasse cause no one has the FAQ text handy (which is QUITE clear to these old Judge's eyes), then the "Roll for it" rule should still apply.
I plan to play this edition ONLY (okay 90%...) for the storytelling aspects. I won't be handing out easy wins like lollipops, but I won't get drawn into those kind of arguments if I can help it. If they won't go to a roll off, I'll even say, "Fine, you're right for now, keep playing, we'll figure it out later". If they're one of those who INSIST on me *accepting*/*admitting* they're right during the game, I'll say "Fine, you're right, AND you're a dick, AND we're done here. Enjoy your empty victory, for we shall not cross dice again."

I mean really, Wheaton's Law applies even to 40K, no?

If you're still resolute about bailing on 40K, I'd try to tempt you to play Warmachine (Khador army for sale Friday!)...BUT, we have those kind of dicks in that game too. On the upside, words mean what they mean, and a phrase like "base characteristic" would have an absolute definition which you could look up in the Glossary or Index.

I hope you change your mind - the new Necron Ascension needs you!

-Dale

[Asandiril]

<sic> I'll say "Fine, you're right, AND you're a dick, AND we're done here. Enjoy your empty victory, for we shall not cross dice again."

I mean really, Wheaton's Law applies even to 40K, no?

If you're still resolute about bailing on 40K, I'd try to tempt you to play Warmachine (Khador army for sale Friday!)...BUT, we have those kind of dicks in that game too. On the upside, words mean what they mean, and a phrase like "base characteristic" would have an absolute definition which you could look up in the Glossary or Index.

I hope you change your mind - the new Necron Ascension needs you!

-Dale

Thank you, Dale. I can now add "dick" to the many names I've been called at the Haven.

...

[Rorschach]

Thank you, Dale. I can now add "dick" to the many names I've been called at the Haven.

YOU'RE the 6 Hour Argument guy? Clearly there's some context here I'm missing, having not been actual witness.
And technically, I didn't call you a dick...just a hypothetical possibility

[FormShaper]

Rhymes with "Mc."

So, there's that.

MB

[Rorschach]

Rhymes with "Mc."

Was there whiskey involved in this debate? Cause otherwise, doin' it wrong. Game Rules should clearly be treated like Political and Religion debates - best done with drinks in hand.

[Rogue428]

Whoa! I got some wind of things going a little south on this thread, so I thought I better clear things up.

I just want to clarify that I don't have a beef with anyone down at the Haven. Especially not with Jason. Yes we did get into a long argument about some inane stuff, but hey, we're geeks, that's kind of what we do! With this particular point Dale, we couldn't just dice it off, since I was practicing for FOB and it is kind of a pivotal ruling for the army I was planning on running. So it was very very important to me whether or not things worked the way I thought they worked and have been playing for years.

As for the hobby and me, I have not been having fun with 40K for a long time. I thought it was just the tourney scene but it wasn't. I made the mistake of coming down for Friday night 40K with some fluffy or non-optimal armies to have fun and I wound up continuously getting my butt kicked, which can be fun. But most of the games were very one sided and consisted of me just taking my models off the table. On that Saturday, I brought my tournament Space Wolves down and they were kicking butt...until that ruling, which fairly undoes them against a bike opponent who gets FNP, or NOB Bikers, or DraigoWing and a number of other popular hard tourney builds. Basically, if T-wolf Lords w/ Fists are not STR 10, then there's no point bringing them, because they will get stomped. It literally changed the outcome of the game. So after hanging out at the Haven discussing it, I went home and tried to look at alternative armies to run. I didn't want to run my Grey Knights, because I don't run Draigo-Wing and didn't feel like running it. So as I was looking at alternatives it occurred to me that any alternates I'd have to play would involve some huge efforts of painting and time which I did not have. My Logan-Wing SW still needed a lot of painting to be go for a tourney, and my Necrons aren't fit to see the tabletop yet. So, I just decided not to go to the tournament.

Once I made that decision, I realized that I'm wasting a lot of time on 40K that I really can't afford right now, as I have other things that need my attention a lot more. So 40K wasn't all that much fun anymore anyway. So it was easiest thing to walk away from. It doesn't hurt that it is a massive time-vampire.

Sorry for the thread-jack, but I just wanted to say, there aren't any hard feelings from my side. It was just that on that particular day, it made it easy to make a decision I was leaning towards anyway. To be honest, the only reason I hadn't walked away in 5th, was because I was waiting to see how 6th would turn out.