Competitive vs Fun: discussion (was 40K 6th Ed rules questions, old)

[Rorschach]

Q:
If my weapons have a max range of 6", and I'm being charged from past 6" away, do I get Overwatch? RAW seems to indicate not, as you fire before the chargers move, and count range as normal. But this seems fairly counterintuitive...

Query for Clarification:
If ONE model of a unit is in range of my weapons, and I score 12 wounding hits, and the first wound kills the one model in range, are the other wounds allocated to the models "out of range"? Page 16, top of first column seems to say "Yes", but the wording is ... lacking in clarity.

That's it for now...still reading.

[Genestealer]

I'd agree with everything Dale just said as well.

[Asandiril]

Here's a question that has come up and caused not a little bit of contention:
What is the Strength value of a Space Wolf character weilding a power fist/thunder hammer, riding a Thunderwolf mount. Is it Strength 4 +1 x2 = 10; or is it Strength 4 x2 +1 = 9?

By the rulebook (p.2), when dealing with multiple modifiers granted by wargear you would multiply first, then add/subtract. But there is a compelling argument that the "base characteristic" is changed first THEN multiplied, thanks to the wording of the Space Wolf FAQ answer (see the quote below). As a bit of back info, the rule has been the same since 4th Edition (multiple modifiers = multiply, then add/subtract). But that niggling wording of "base characteristic" in the FAQ makes things odd. And to further complicate things, this would apply to units like Blood Angel Death Company ('Furious Charge' + power fists) and Khorne Berzerkers (Skull Champion with 'Furious Charge' and a power fist).


Here is a copy of the letter I've sent off to GW (amongst others...) containing the pertinent information regarding the wargear and the rulebook rules:

Hello!

I'm hoping to get an answer, as official or FAQ-worthy (?) as possible. I'm running the local qualifier for the independent Feast of Blades tournament this coming Saturday, August 4th, and a pressing question has come up that is splitting our local gaming club into two camps. It involves Space Wolf Wolf Lords mounted on Thunderwolves.

The catalyst:
The Thunderwolf mount wargear entry (Codex: SW, p.62) states it provides the character (in this case, a Wolf Lord) with: +1 Strength, +1 Toughness and +1 Attack. This would make the Wolf Lord S5, T5 and A5.

The issue:
By giving the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf a power fist, it is being argued his Strength doubles to 10 since the modifier affects his "base characteristic." Support for this is drawn from the v.1 6th Ed. Space Wolves FAQ, with a precedent set by the bonus Toughness granted from Bikes:

"Question: Is the +1 Strength from a Thunderwolf Mount a modification to the base characteristic (p62)?
A. Yes"

But according to p.2 of the W40k rulebook, under Modifiers/Multiple Modifiers, if a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify characteristics, we first apply multipliers THEN apply additions/subtractions. So in this case the Wolf Lord would be S9 (Base Strength 4, x2 for power fist, +1 for Thunderwolf mount = 9). This issue would also apply to units like Blood Angel Death Company, as their 'Furious Charge' grants them +1 Strength and they can equip power fists.

Our question:
What is the Strength value of a Space Wolf character weilding a power fist/thunder hammer, riding a Thunderwolf mount. Is it Strength 4 +1 x2 = 10; or is it Strength 4 x2 +1 = 9?



Thank you for your time and assistance in this matter!
- Jason McAuliffe, GW Tournament Organizer @ The Gamer's Haven, Colorado Springs, CO

[Genestealer]

S10 per codex as you have stated.

[Rob]

It would be S9 same as Nobz you double the S then add the +1

PAX

[Asandiril]

....

[Genestealer]

Aren't thunderwolf cav nothing more than S4/T4 marines riding on thunderwolf mounts (+1S/+1T)?

Read the question in the FAQ right above the one you quote about strength, it talks about thunderwolf mounts and toughness. Looking at that question and then the strength question below seems like they have made a mess of what bonus or modification might mean in terms of base characteristics.

MY gut feeling is still the same thoguh, wolf plus rider is one model so the base characteristics (as discussed in the T question) would be 5. I'd still go with the S10 statement based on the question as it is discussed about T. The wolf and lord are tougher and stronger than either one alone. Wether the FAQ is really stating that I am not sure, again seems like a wording issue.

In regards to FC it is a one time bonus on the charge so you double then add.

PS. I've got no pans in this fire so don't really care, just thought I'd throw it out there as the defense to my statement that you were asking for before Rob replied.

[Rob]

Hmm I read that to fast I. Know the Nobz is correct but not sure about the Tunderwolf...Ray may be right. More reading for me now

[Genestealer]

OK. so after looking far and wide on the Internet, the best source of information out there. My final thoughts on this are, and I'm not saying I am right, just imo...

The +1S/T that is provided by the mount changes the models characteristic to S5/T5. Since we are talking one model, then the TH would be S10. Again, I'm basing this off the question regarding T and the +1/+1 being applied to the profile of the lord. If the thunderwolf mount provides a straight T5, why would it not do the same for S?

Again, I don't care and it's not like I'm going to be mad about it either way.

Though I am surprised to have not seen any SW players (Mike, Ryland) throwing in their comments, or others who totally hate SW in the first place (everyone else).

How does thunderwolf mount read in the SW codex? If it says add +1S to the profile (a permanent change) then I'm sticking with the above and they are base S5.

I believe that furious charge USR (don't have the new book so this might have changed) says add +1S to the characteristic the turn they charge, so I'd define it as a modifier (since it is temporary).

[Rogue428]

I'm done with the hobby. Got tired of my dice, tired of the expense, tired of arguing, and tired of the B.S. I tried to be a decent opponent and I didn't bring national tourney level armies on the local gaming scene because most times they are OP and mean, folks can't handle it, and it takes away from the fun that a nice pickup game is supposed to have. The one time I bring a legitimate tourney army down to the store to practice I run into this. And it turned into a 6 hour argument instead of gaming or fun. The spirit of the game, the forging of the narrative, the cooperative aspect is gone for me, and honestly, I haven't seen it for a long time. The game is simply not fun anymore. And the bottom line of a hobby is that it needs to be fun first and all other conditions are secondary. I thought that it might be the tourney scene and that playing at the FLGS with some "friendly" games would make things different. I was wrong. This was just the straw... /NERDRAGE

Anyway, I no longer have a dog in this fight but others might and this can easily make the difference between a W and a L as it did in my games.

For the record, I will re-iterate my side of the argument. This was an issue when the Thunderwolf Cavalry first made their appearance and the very first FAQ that came out GW addressed this and it made a big splash in the community whenever that was...roughly over two years ago. It was the same in 5th and the same in 6th edition. This has not changed. From my side, it is open and shut. GW states it plainly. Could they make it more clear? Sure. They always could.

[emphasis mine in all instances]

The entry for both a Powerfist and a Thunderhammer in the BRB shows a modification to the base characteristic under S for x2.

Verbiage from the Codex: pg 62 Entry for Thunderwolf Mount
"A character with a Thunderwolf Mount has the unit type of cavalry, adds +1 Strength, +1 Toughness, and +1 Attack to his profile..."

Canis Wolfborn (Thunderwolf Mounted Character Stats)
WS: 5 BS:2 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:5 A:5 Ld:8 Sv: 3+ Shows clearly he is BASE Strength 5. (This is where that term base characteristic comes into play.) Somehow, if Canis could take a Thunderhammer, what STR would he be? S x2.

Normal Marine mounted on Thunderwolf Cavalry Stats (Fast Attack choice)
WS: 4 BS: 4 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:4 Ld:8 Sv: 3+ Shows clearly that they are BASE Strength 5 and Toughness 5. They cannot be insta-killed by anything less than STR 10 (even in 5th this was true. Note it did not list them as 4(5) like a Space Marine bike entry used to be back in 5th). Unlike Canis, we don't have to wonder because one of them can take a Thunderhammer and can take a Power Fist. S x2. That would make them STR 10. Somehow this is not an issue. Does it make sense that the wolf is somehow benefiting from the hammer or fist IRL? No. Does getting on a motorcycle in real life make one tougher? (maybe in the mind...) But we don't have time to sit here and list out all the things that don't make sense IRL but do in 40K. It is a representation and a game, not RL. But if one needs a RL parallel, a guy on horseback with a spear can hit you a hell of a lot harder than a guy on foot with a spear. That's the whole reason for lance charges with cavalry. After the invention of the stirrup, it changed the face of warfare.

Now way back when the dex first came out and people were still shocked that the rules for 13th company were gone. This caused an issue. What STR is a Wolf Lord or other character like an Iron Priest, mounted on a Thunderwolf with a Power Fist or Thunderhammer? Is he base S:5 or is he S: 4(5)? Because then S:5x2 = 10 or S:4(5) x 2 +1 = 9? (The very issue of this debate!) (as an aside, 6th edition removes the parenthetical and tells you to take the higher, so even if he was S:4(5) in 5th, he'd be S:5 now.)

Even then, the majority was saying STR 10. Because of the words, "...to his profile" in the Wargear entry under Thunderwolf mount and the only two examples we had of folks mounted on Thunderwolves, which was Canis and the Fast Attack choice. But, luckily for us, GW put out a FAQ to lay the matter to rest. I don't remember when that FAQ first came out, but it was very soon after the Codex had come out, like maybe 3 months later.

Verbiage from the FAQ, specifically the three questions that go hand in hand to answering this. One on Toughness, one on Strength, and one covering which weapon a character mounted on Thunderwolf uses. (BTW, this verbiage hasn't changed since. And is still in the current 6th edition FAQ, word for word as it first appeared.)

"Q: Does a Thunderwolf Cavalry model with a special close combat weapon (eg. a thunder hammer) still have rending attacks? (p34)
A: No. The description of Thunderwolf mount on page 62 says that it '...has the Rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special close combat weapon'. This applies to Thunderwolf Cavalry as well (and Canis Wolfborn for that matter.)"

Why this is important to this argument? It demonstrates GW precedent that the entry under Thunderwolf mount, is the entry for all Thunderwolves, even Canis' unusually large Thunderwolf. Therefore, if Fast Attack Thunderwolf Cavalry with a powerfist or thunderhammer are S10, so is anyone else riding a Thunderwolf with a PF or TH. But they don't stop there.

"Q: Is the +1 Toughness from a Thunderwolf Mount considered a bonus Toughness, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 4(5), or is it a modification to the base characteristic, i.e. the model becomes Toughness 5? (p62)
A: Unusually for such bonuses, it is a modification to the base characteristic. Effectively the two creatures have a combined profile with Toughness 5. This is because the Toughness value represents both the Toughness of the Space Marine and the Toughness of the Thunderwolf (which is, if anything, more impressive than even a member of the Astartes). It is not just an enhanced Toughness for the Space Marines, as with a Space Marine bike. After all, a Space Marine bike cannot react on its own, and is useless without a rider, whereas a giant monstrous wolf is still a tough customer!"

Why is this important? Because it shows GW precedent for their usage of the term 'a modification to the base characteristic'. Also it establishes their thought out intent concerning the bonus conferred by a Thunderwolf mount. (Interestingly enough, in 6th edition, and not corrected in the FAQ, a space marine bike now changes a marines base characteristic to T5, which actually further supports my argument). But this doesn't need to turn into a 'Rules as Intended' versus 'Rules as Written' debate, because we still have one more FAQ instance to go.

"Q: Is the +1 Strength from a Thunderwolf Mount a modification to the base characteristic? (p62)
A: Yes."

Therefore, a Space Marine character on a Thunderwolf mount is BASE Str 5. Give that guy a Power Fist or Thunderhammer and what strength are they? S x2. They would seem to be STR 10.

If one needs further evidence of GW's intent regarding a character mounted on a Thunderwolf. We can look to the GW store under the entry for the model Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf Mount. There are stats there. They read:
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf WS:6 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:5 A:5 Ld: 10 Save: 3+

The only way GW could be clearer is to list the stats of a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with Thunderhammer or Powerfist. But clearly, based on their one word answer to the FAQ as to whether it modified their base characteristic, they didn't feel they needed to.

This isn't even an issue anywhere else. I don't just play at the Haven. I've played my Space Wolves, in Austin, Chicago, L.A., Sacramento, Virginia all at national level events. This doesn't even come up.

TL;DR: So, to sum up my side of the debate. A character with a Thunderwolf mount has their base profile characteristics changed to true Strength 5 and true Toughness 5. If I then equip said character with a Power Fist, a Thunderhammer, or some other piece of gear that doubles their base strength, they are granted true Strength 10. Q.E.D.


[edited for grammar, clarity, and apparently because I can't spell...]

Also, apologies for the WALL OF TEXT (tm), but it was somewhat cathartic to get it all down in one place.