Unit Fillers

[Lolepops]

Greetings folks,

I have an army idea. However, I was wondering what the stance on unit fillers was before I decide how I am modeling something. Are they frowned upon in general or only if they don't add to the army overall? In case you are not sure what I mean, here is a link to an example.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=19

The middle picture in that post is a perfect example of a unit filler. So, what is everyone's opinion on this? Also, would this be allowed in tournaments?

[Asandiril]

As a Judge, I would not allow them, since per RAW for tournaments your army must be WYSIWYG. If I'm looking across the table at your regiment, and I see 12 guys surrounding something in the center of the regiment, I'm going to count on killing 3 guys for a 25% [i[Panic[/i] check and 12 to wipe out the unit.

Frugality and miniature games do not mix. GW (and most other games companies now) sell their product in unit-building sets, to better build units. Yes, it's a hobby, and in a "hobby game" or "friendly game," it'd be fine I'm sure to have unit fillers. But when you come to a tournament, where a large percentage of the other participants built full units, and you plop down a 3/4 unit with a fancy do-dad in the middle to represent the missing troops, well that just smacks of laziness and loop-holing. The tournament rules dictate WYSIWYG, thus a 3/4 counts as the 3/4 troops that are modeled and on the table. The do-dad is a do-dad, like converted bases.

[lambobolt]

Although i personally agree with Jason, i have been to 3 grand tourneys the last 2 years, and these kinda fillers were allowed. one guy even had an entire unit of nothign but head stones and called them zombies! i could see if he had a hand sticking through the ground, or a body part, or something. nothing but headstones....ive also seen an awesome high elf filler of an exceptional waystone. i looked awesome, but had no figure on it. then there are the demonic ones that have strange tentacles and appendiges coming out of the ground for demonettes....
my own opinion, im all for saving money and not using everything i own to go to GW. But you also have to be able to tell what the filler is (reference jason's note above about WISIWYG). so if they are stuck in the middle fo the unit, surrounded by other figures that demonstrate the unit, them im OK with it. but i also have no problem if they are not allowed for the reasons above.
later

[Wycwythel]

I'm with jeff. I could see someone using a few fillers for a unit of 20 for whatever, as long as it made sense. Tombstones I get, but twenty of them makes it seem like terrain instead of a unit. I remember a tournament at The Haven where a guy with dwarves had a unit of 20 guys with a few drunken dwarves at a bar and it was BEAUTIFUL, but it also made sense, and you could make out the individual bases. I can understand the whole wysiwyg, spending the money and taking the time with the models, but sometimes its nice to see a good filler.

Yeah twenty tombstones I don't think so. That would be like saying twenty sand covered bases are warrios for the Tomb Kings....I don't think so.

I would also love to have a wysiwyg, because I use wolves, spiders, lions, boars and stags for my wild riders. So boars get +2 on the charge, spiders have poison, lions are at S5, stags should get +1S on the charge for the first round for using antlers.

[Garaz]

Thanks for the kind words about my Dwarves!

Since I think I have the most non-standard army (in terms of GW figs, not figs from other producers) that routinely shows up at the Haven, I can't help but chime in. There are some others that show up at Genghis and Tacticon (both non-standard and non-GW).

Below are my thoughts on non-traditional armies and stand-ins. Though I will say that I always bring a 'traditional army' just in case someone has a problem with my non-standard army.

WYSIWYG is only in force if the tournament organizers specifically list it as a rule. The only tournament that routinely has GW WSYWIG rules are officially sponsored GW Rogue Trader, Games Day, or Grand Tournaments.

WYSIWYG also does not mean that every model in the army has to show the exact armament used by the unit and does not mean that unit fillers aren't allowed. WYSIWYG means that "weapons, armor options, and upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on characters and a majority of the models in a unit or squad."

Counts as can also be used in GW tournaments with certain restrictions. "the models must be roughly the same size as those you are substituting them for (eg. you could not use Imperial Guard Ogryn to represent Imperial Guard Conscripts), you must be consistent throughout your army (eg. if both of your Space Marine Dreadnoughts have twin-linked heavy bolters - an option no longer allowed - you could field them both as assault cannons, but not one of them as an assault cannon and the other as twin-linked lascannons), and finally you must be very clear with your opponent prior to the game, going over anything that may cause confusion."

The following is an excerpt on WYSIWYG from the 2008 GT rules. You can see it at:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...400027&start=3

Conversions, WYSIWYG, and “Counts As”

Non-Citadel miniatures are not allowed in the Grand Tournament and will be removed in the same way as unpainted miniatures.

Conversions must begin as Citadel miniatures and contain a majority of Citadel components. All other models will be removed from the table. They must be of the appropriate type for the troops they represent and comply with the “Counts As” rule below.

ForgeWorld miniatures may be used to represent models or options from the Codexes and Army Books allowed. This means you could use a ForgeWorld Demolisher turret or Death Korps of Krieg troopers in your Imperial Guard army but would not be allowed to use Heavy Mortars or Centaurs.

The army must be WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). This means that weapons, armor options, and upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on characters and a majority of the models in a unit or squad.
Should you wish to field certain models in your army that “count as” something different in your list than the model that was originally intended you need to follow these basic rules: the models must be roughly the same size as those you are substituting them for (eg. you could not use Imperial Guard Ogryn to represent Imperial Guard Conscripts), you must be consistent throughout your army (eg. if both of your Space Marine Dreadnoughts have twin-linked heavy bolters - an option no longer allowed - you could field them both as assault cannons, but not one of them as an assault cannon and the other as twin-linked lascannons), and finally you must be very clear with your opponent prior to the game, going over anything that may cause confusion. It may be appropriate to create a “cheat sheet” for your opponent that has pictures of the units accompanied by a description of the units and it’s equipment."

So, essentially in my interpretation, a unit filler is allowed as long as it is in keeping with the army (even if it is a stand-in). If it is a WYSIWYG tourney, then stand-ins are still allowed so long as the stand ins conform to the counts as rule and that half the unit has the proper armament.

[Lolepops]

Thank you for the info. Now I am going to have to figure out how to convert so it is proper for tournaments an Arc of the Covenant for my Hebrew Orcs. Yes Jason, I know we had suggested using the BSB, but if I put him on a chariot, then the Mork's Spirit Totem banner that is perfect to represent the powers of it is hard to use. hehe. again though, thank you for the help and info.

[Orrlak]

I'm with the few is ok crowd. It is incumbent on us to figure out as many ways as possible to keep GW from getting our $$ than they are at taking it from us.

Hey Bob, you back in the Springs yet?

[Lolepops]

Nope. Not back in the Springs just yet. I am almost back. Trust me, once I am, I will be up to the Haven my first chance the wife lets me. hehe.

[Garaz]

I'm with the few is ok crowd. It is incumbent on us to figure out as many ways as possible to keep GW from getting our $$ than they are at taking it from us.

Hey Bob, you back in the Springs yet?

I agree with that. It cost me way more than a traditional army to get drunk dwarves, other OOP dwarves (when they were still available through the catalogue) from GW and even more for some of the ones I got off eBay.

[costampede]

I think in a fun game it would be ok, but for Tournament play you should take the time, effort, and $$$ to have a complete army no fillers.