Rules: Hills & Elevated Positions

[Guillius]

Page 6, left column, last paragraph:

"Units on a hill can draw a line of sight from an elevated position and they can always shoot (and be shot at) over models that are not on a hill, in the same way as described for large targets. This means that models in the rear ranks of the units on the flat may shoot against models standing on a hill"

So here is the situation.

A three rank unit of archers on a hill, Unit A, versus a three rank unit of archers on the ground, Unit B. Both units are 5x3 in size. If the Unit A is shooting Unit B, Unit A would get 5 shots. If Unit B is shooting at Unit A, Unit B would get 15 shots.

Let the discussion begin.

[Rorschach]

No, because units on Hills can fire in two ranks. So A could fire 10 shots, B could fire 15.

Beyond that, what's to discuss?

[Heliodorus04]

Well, what SHOULD be discussed is the age-old line of sight basic of any so-called wargame: Line-of-Sight is reciprocal. If I can see and shoot at you, you can see and shoot at me. Thus, this is one of, but certainly not the least dumb rule of WHFB.

Unit B should only get to shoot at unit a with 10 shots. The front rank, and the rear rank. It doesn't say anything about intervening ranks.

To me what the rule SHOULD state is that units in a second rank can fire at units on a hill. Not units in "the last". If a unit was 5 ranks deep on the flat, doesn't this imply that only the first and last can fire to units on the hill?

[Guillius]

Whenever I post here it is specifically because I've had others mention to me they understand it differently hence my post is meant to draw out the individuals who understand the rule clearly as well as those who think it needs discussion (the people that understand it differently from me).

Seems it is clear so far (minus the 5 missing shots from unit A as they get an extra rank). So, if anyone disagrees I'd just like to know their reasoning.

[Guillius]

Nevermind on it being clear so far on my post above. Took too long to post the reply LOL.

[MountainKing]

As i have always understood that the units in the rear ranks can't shoot because they can't see past their fellows. This means that if you have a unit with three ranks and a target that everyone in the archer unit can see (like a large target which for line of sight purposes ignores intervening models or unit on a hill) then everybody can shoot. The fact that two ranks can shoot from a hill is due to a totally different chain of rules and shouldn't be mentioned in the same rules question, but usually is anyway. I have gotten into game stopping arguments over this issue though and for that reason never take shooting units with more that 2 ranks, just to keep it easy.

[Rorschach]

The argument "If I can see you, you can see me" is specious here. The unit on the ground merely needs for all its member to be able to look up at an angle and see the front of the Hill unit in order to fire on that unit.
The Hill Unit needs all of its member to be able to see into the valley below to shoot. Since the Warhammer world archers have only invented the basic 2-ranked fire so far, the third rank can't see past their fellows.

Someday, you'd hope they'd realize such baffling tactics as
-- Bring light weight boxes for the 3rd rank to stand on (per ZULU)
-- Stand in three staggered ranks, ala the opening of LOTR. If Jason's rumor mill is correct, the new High Elves DO get this...
-- 1st ranks stand lower on the hill, 2nd ranks kneels, third rank stands...

Such innovation though is well beyond these societies which have been in the Middle Ages for 4000 years...
;D

[Heliodorus04]

Yes, my argument is slightly specious for the unit on the hill. The guys on the flat only need to see the front rank of the guys on the hill. They can fire off all their ranks knowing full well that all of the guys in the back are going to charge into the arrows falling in front of them once a space is made ready by the guy standing there now.

I'm making myself sick here. Why did I come back to these fora? I really don't want to make everyone hate the rules, I just can't stop myself.

[Rorschach]

You love it! Poking holes in GW logic is like picking fights with the mentally ill...