Blood Claws, Reserves...???

[Ouija]

I have a couple of questions that really revolve around what people think about some hazy or once in a while rules.

First In a 2500 pt. game last night against my favorite Khorne player I was presented with a "Blood Claws" special rule. A fifteen man squad of blood claws were intent on assualting a squad that would show dire consequences if left alive. In order to maximize the kill rate the blood claws fired their pistols before assualting. In a miraculous act of Russ everyone in the enemy unit was hit wounded and failed their armor save.

Now the problem comes in that there is no longer anyone in that squad to assualt as they are all dead. however, there is an enemy unit just to the left a little that is within six inches. Now I understand I can't declare a charge against a unit if I shot at another unit but the blood claws have a special rule called headstrong. meaning that they must assualt an enemy if it within six inches.

So what might be the ruling?

Second, Does a squad or Vehicle count as moving when it enters from reserve. In the same game two chaos predators came on the table and wanted to shoot all of their lascannons. Common sense to me say they had to move onto the table but this particular player has a point that they can still move.

In that respect do you set your model on the table and then move it or do you measure the distance you want to move and place your models. With the former you would be 4-5 inches closer than with the latter.

I respect most of the community at the Haven and would love to have a census. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.

-Tim

[TommySalami]

I'm not really a rules guru, but here's my understanding.

First, I don't think that you would be able to launch the assault with the blood claws. Once you have fired at a squad that is the only squad you are allowed to charge. I don't think the compulsory charge would overrule that. It is an interesting question though and I could make a case for either side. It just seems to me that you're locked in to the first squad once you fire at them, regardless of them being summarily wiped out.

Second, I don't think he can fire all weapons. It's always been my understanding that you move on from the board edge. As though the front of your vehicle was right on the edge of the board, then you moved on. That one I'm a bit more confidant about that the first one.

[Rorschach]

At one time, it was in the FAQ that Blood Claws cannot charge a different target, even if its the only one in 6". The new FAQ does not have that. It does mention they CANNOT rapid fire their pistols, if there's enemy within 6" as that would prevent them charging.
However, in this situation, GW tells us to use the Rules As Written. In which case the BC's WOULD be able to charge the new target. (Assuming you're recounting the BC rule correctly - I'd want to see the EXACT wording before I stood firmly on that)

Reserves always count as moving, even Deep Strikers.

[MyMyst8k]

I agree with the reserves ruling. When you 'move' on from reserves, you measure your movement from the table edge. That means predators must move on from the table edge and wouldn't be able to fire multiple lascannons. Please be aware that the 'table edge' can include the 12" sides of your deployment zone on a long table board mission.

Dale, I looked up the exact wording of the Blood Claws and it is different than described above. "Head-Strong: Blood Claws must charge if one of their models is within 6" of the enemy, unless the pack is being led by an independent character." (bold is mine).

So now we go through the steps of the assault phase.
1: Declare charges.

Page 36 states "A unit may charge multiple enemy units, but only if the charging unit can reach them all without losing unit coherency."

page 36 also states, "If the unit fired in the Shooting phase it must start its charge by engaging the unit it shot at."

So there are our requirements:

1. Check to see if enemy are within 6" and if so we have to make a charge at something. check.

2. Primary charge has to be against the unit they shot at. check.

3. We can declare charges against multiple enemy units if we can reach them all. In this case, we can't reach our primary target, so we can't charge anyone else. The only charge we can declare is against the unit we shot at. Check.

4. If the unit we are charging is out of range this counts as a failed charge, and we don't move the Blood Claws. check.

I think this is one of those rare instances, where an enemy will be within 6" but Blood Claws won't be able to charge them. But this is in keeping with the 4th ed standard that you can't shoot one unit, kill it, and charge another.

Otherwise, you'd have Blood Claws shooting melta guns at tanks, then charging a different squad beside them.

[Rorschach]

I see the approach - Blood Claws can't charge the original unit because they're all dead. Therefore they cannot charge a SECOND unit as well. Therefore no charge. That's how I'd rule it.

Geez..would it have killed GW to put that in an FAQ?

[march10k]

What really sucks about the second question is that a land raider won't be able to shoot at all, except for POTMS, because it has to move more than 6" just to get on the board :D


Page 36 states "A unit may charge multiple enemy units, but only if the charging unit can reach them all without losing unit coherency."

God, I love that rule...like charging a shas'o, a unit of fire warriors, and two units of gun drones with a single squad of four bikes, blocking LOS for the sniper drone team just behind them... ~WEG~ Even if the bikes had eventually died (they didn't, they raped and pillaged, then ran down the survivors as they fled), it would have been worth it to see half an army tied up by one unit.