[p] A Gamer can make a difference . . .

[MyMyst8k]

Caution, this is a little long, but it's good stuff. :~)

Anyway, last week after getting back from Memorial Day I got a call out of the blue from my State Senator, John Morse.

That alone was a little weird, and totally unexpected. I had met Senator Morse last summer while he had been campaigning through my neighborhood. He and I had a conversation about what kind of things I’d like to see in local government and what kind of issues mattered to me. We talked for a while and had a very good discussion, but I didn’t think anything more of it afterwards.

Fast-forward to last week, Senator Morse called me up to invite me to a signing ceremony because the idea I had given him that day had now become a Bill.

Senate Bill 146 creates a pilot program here in Colorado Springs to provide mental health treatment to the spouses and children of discharged veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. I spoke to the senator about mental health issues specifically because I knew how hard it can be to access those services for many vets and their families. And although the VA covers veterans, often times their families go uninsured after they leave the service. This bill is designed to give those family members access to mental health treatment.

So rather than paraphrase what happened at the signing ceremony, I’ll just post an excerpt from the Senator’s Speech:


I am extremely pleased to stand before you as this bill becomes law. Many people worked very hard to make this a reality and I thank you all again for getting us to this point.

In the few seconds I have here to talk about this bill, I would like to tell you about its genesis because I think it speaks volumes about how our democracy is supposed to work.

Last summer as I was walking door to door campaigning for this state senate seat, I met a man in his twenties in a neighborhood just west of downtown. When I asked him to tell me about the issues, at the state level that were most important to him, he told me one of those issues was the treatment of our veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

He explained that many troops come through Fort Carson and fall in love with Colorado, just like the rest of us, and make this their home when they separate from the service after fulfilling their military obligation. He told me that many of these people end up as Colorado citizens and that it makes little sense to rely solely on the Federal Government to provide for their needs because if they fall short we suffer the consequences right here in our community and our state. He suggested that as Colorado citizens we have a vested interest in ensuring that our veterans assimilate into our community as happy, healthy, productive members and we ought to be willing to help. Often war experienced veterans are impeded from fully assimilating because of the trauma they suffered while in battle. Some of that trauma is mental and is not readily apparent to most of us, and often not even to the soldiers themselves. This voter clearly articulated to me that this was a critical way for all of us to support our troops instead of just talking about supporting our troops.

This idea was so simple and so awesome that I committed on the spot to addressing it if I was elected. Today is the culmination of that commitment. I have received many compliments on this legislation, but today, I would like to introduce you to that man at the door who is really responsible and deserves the credit. His name is Donovan Tracy. Donovan, would you please stand so that we may thank you with a heart felt round of applause.

Donovan, thank you for your idea. Thank you for believing in the process of our government and thank you for trusting me to get it done.

Here's a link to an article in the Independent (http://www.csindy.com/csindy/2007-06-07/news5.html) about the ceremony.

And here a couple pictures from the event:

The Bill Signing (http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/6827/146billsigning7editeq1.jpg) (I'm on the far left)

A local veteran, his wife, a mental health administrator, Me, the Governor, and the State Senator (http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3717/146billsigning8editqn0.jpg)

So needles to say, I’ve been incredibly happy about all of this. I’m just really grateful that an idea I had will be turned into action, and a lot of people will get help they otherwise wouldn’t have gotten. I’m especially happy that this will help the spouses and children of veterans that are oftentimes the unseen casualties of war.

I also wanted to thank all of you here at Gamer's Haven because it's frequently been here, on this forum, where I've honed my political chops. In a way, all the debate we have here helped me formulate this idea.

Thanks for checking this out, and for letting me share the news. Cheers.

[Pilgrim]

Sweetness Dovonvan!

Good work you!

[Da' Boss Troll]

"Senate Bill 146 creates a pilot program here in Colorado Springs to provide mental health treatment to the spouses and children of discharged veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars."

Hear that off in the distance... The sound of millions of tax dollars flushing down the toilet.

[smileytheelf]

"Senate Bill 146 creates a pilot program here in Colorado Springs to provide mental health treatment to the spouses and children of discharged veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars."

Hear that off in the distance... The sound of millions of tax dollars flushing down the toilet.

way to make an ass of yourself.

[Stu]

I talked to the Surgeon General for a bit when he toured Cedar Springs, checking out the off-base mental health options some of the GIs look at when government care is inadequate. He was interested in what we were doing, but didn't really have a plan for expanding services. I think Carson's a priority because health care--and particularly mental health care--is so undervalued in Colorado.

Nice job, Donovan, way to speak up!

[angel_lord]

An idea that deserves it's due. Glad some politicians are listening and some have the opportunity to speak.

Kudos

[Da' Boss Troll]

way to make an ass of yourself.

So divergant opinons are met with name calling?

What makes this set of wars so differant than all the past wars? Why is this great sinkhole of tax dollars needed today when families have been loosing thier members to the various wars this country has been engaged in for over 200 years? Is it because a Republican is getting them killed instead of a Democrat?

[smileytheelf]

So divergant opinons are met with name calling?

What makes this set of wars so differant than all the past wars? Why is this great sinkhole of tax dollars needed today when families have been loosing thier members to the various wars this country has been engaged in for over 200 years? Is it because a Republican is getting them killed instead of a Democrat?


No, my like or dislike for the individual bill has nothing to do with this thread. Donovan is relating a story about something he participated in that is pretty cool, and I felt that your comments were situationally inappropriate, so I gave my opinion on them. If you want to debate the bill you could find a more polite way of doing it (and yes, I'm clear that my comment was not polite).

[Da' Boss Troll]

If you want to debate the bill you could find a more polite way of doing it (and yes, I'm clear that my comment was not polite).

Really? Like spending time on research that will be wasted because the issue is an emotional one and facts are irrelevent to the case. Might as well skip past all the preliminaries and get right on to the impolite stuff.

[Nate Train]

Why is this great sinkhole of tax dollars needed today when families have been loosing thier members to the various wars this country has been engaged in for over 200 years?


So since it was a bleeding wound for so long, it isn't worth trying to fix now? Lets just let it bleed some more...how's that sound?

Do you like being attacked on message boards, or do you want it to look like you are being picked on so people will feel sorry for you?

And what happened to being polite like you were 'trying' to do in the other thread?

[Pilgrim]

Interesting sub-note on this.

As some of you know my wife works in community mental health, so I naturally figured she'd be happy to hear about this, she was... in fact her group got the grant to do this particular thing, so her company is profiting directly...

However she did bring up an interesting point to me about this all.

PPBHG (Pike Peak Behavioral Health Group) as an entity has been working and lobbying for this exact thing for 10-15 years now. It's a touch self serving of course because any state money spent goes into their coffers, but still she was a touch put out that no where did they mention the massive amount of work PPBHG did to get this done.

Her frustration is if they screw up, or even sorta appear to screw up they get crucified in the press (It's happened recently when one of their clients killed their kid and then herself) but they work hard to get something that it seems at least most of us think is a good thing, and they get not a mention.

It's an interesting look at the way the world works. This is something that a special interest... namely community mental health organizations across the state have been lobbying for, but when it comes about instead of being honest about it and saying "This is what's going on... this is a need, the Mental Health community has recognized it as such, and we're going to give them money to address it." The sanitize that down to the everyman suggestion forum.

Not trying to diminish what you did there Donovan, speaking out about something like this is every citizens right, and honestly obligation, but for the politicians to couch it as a brand new idea...

Welcome to politics everybody :)

[MyMyst8k]

Do you like being attacked on message boards, or do you want it to look like you are being picked on so people will feel sorry for you?


I concur:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/EasyPrey/DontFeedTheTroll.jpg

Da Boss Troll, is simply that, a troll.

1. He's obviously posting just to insight argument.

2. He's been on the board for just a couple of weeks.

3. He even has stated that he's buying his Ork army off of eBay, rather than support the Haven that sponsors this site and gives us all a pace to play.

Ignore him, and hopefully hell get bored and go away.

[smileytheelf]

And I was really hoping his name was gaming related as opposed to forum troll. Oh well, guess thats what I get for only checking in on the boards occasionally.

@Jim: How often do special interest groups actually get credit for things they lobby for in public/semi-public speeches?

[Jason]

Don Baby you DA MAN!!


1. what you did to help the bill.

2. The Troll and what it Say's under neath the photo of the troll.


BOBOBO-BO BO-BOBO

[smileytheelf]

And Smiley you and the Democrats need to stop living in the Matrix's.

Huh?

[Da' Boss Troll]

So since it was a bleeding wound for so long, it isn't worth trying to fix now? Lets just let it bleed some more...how's that sound?

Tell me, how are the families supposed to take advantage of this new benefit? A wife who has lost her husband over in the occupation (it't not legaly a war so the bennies are less) has lost her husbands income. It's likely she has a couple kids and now either (A) works full time and then some to make ends meet or (B) has moved in with her parents IN ANOTHER STATE. She either hasn't the time for some touchy feely time with a greif councilor or doens't live in Colorado anymore.

All this does is make some politicos look good for the next election cycle. It may help a few but by and large it just makes the right folks have warm fuzzy feelings. If you want to help a family that has lost a member why not voulenter some time to really help them instead of patting yourself on the back for giving a politician another way to get some good face time.

[Da' Boss Troll]

3. He even has stated that he's buying his Ork army off of eBay, rather than support the Haven that sponsors this site and gives us all a pace to play.

Do I need to post the recipts for the books I have bought so far? I dropped over $70 already and if I can find the time plan to pick up some repair stuff soon. Some of the E-Bay army came with a broken arm or two...

I simply lack the patience or artistic ability to paint minatures. If the store was middlemanning armies for sale I'd buy them there. But I didn't see any offers for what I wanted.

Now, got a responce to my points or will you continue to try and derail the argument with your cut and paste artwork?

[Pilgrim]

Ok, remember my wife WORKS for the organization that will be doing this... so I got a little bit of insight.

First off, it's not just about dead soldiers and some Grief consolers. This is more about the dramatic psychological impact that having a spouse who's away for a long time come back suddenly with new issues.

This isn't really about the persistently mentally ill, or for the soldiers themselves who have to process PTSD and a number of other maladies.. this is about giving the spouse someone to process what they are feeling with.

Most of the time this would be with close friends or family, but a military family may not have either in close proximity due to the nature of the service, and they may not feel comfortable discussing it with other military spouses... again kinda the nature of the beast there.

Sometimes all a person needs is someone to talk to, and in todays digital society, sometimes that person needs to be trained (And paid) to just listen.

As to when will they find the time... same way any of the thousands of other people who make their way through her office do. If it's important to do it, and the states picking up the bill you'd be amazed how many people will take advantage of it.

[Da' Boss Troll]

Sometimes all a person needs is someone to talk to, and in todays digital society, sometimes that person needs to be trained (And paid) to just listen.

As to when will they find the time... same way any of the thousands of other people who make their way through her office do. If it's important to do it, and the states picking up the bill you'd be amazed how many people will take advantage of it.

But again, it seems that there are fewer and fewer military families staying in the Colorado Springs area. When the military spouse is looking at a year long deployment with at best a six month stint at home before the next deployment many of the families are packing up and miving closer to their parents which most of the time are not here. Keep in mind most of these families are a pair of under 30 somethings with pre-school children. The non military spouces are not working high end jobs that give great bennies. They have little to no reason to stay here. Up until the multiple deployments I did alot of work for young military families. Now not so much. Perhaps not a scientific survey, but looking at the vacancy rates in rental property in this area and the overall economic malaise I think it is one that holds up. So the program, while it will help a few people, by and large is a feel good bit of politics to make some politicians who are weak on the pro-war message look good on the pro-soldier message. Nothing in my opinion to crow about. If something was passed that would get us out of Iraq and keep those families togather THEN I might have a hearty hip hip hooray to toss into the mix.

[Rorschach]

"Senate Bill 146 creates a pilot program here in Colorado Springs to provide mental health treatment to the spouses and children of discharged veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars."

First, some rational discourse.
Great work Donovan! And its cool to see that "Jimmy Stewart" style politics still have a place in our system. That someone doesn't automatically have to throw lobbying money behind an idea to give it traction.

As a parent of a child with a mental health issue, who's been through every program in the state, I can only welcome a well-thought out idea like this. Colorado was, and I think still is, Dead Last in funding mental health dollars for juveniles. If you don't have the mega-bucks to privately treat your kid, you're left with little options. Two facilities that we tried were "reputable" and at both, my step-son was injured "post-restraint".
So any funding to help residents, whether temp or permanent, is welcome.

Also, there's the principle of the State stepping in where the Feds won't bother. You gotta help your own people, even if temporary, when the military abandons its own. That's what gets long term respect for the state, and earns long term residents.


Hear that off in the distance... The sound of millions of tax dollars flushing down the toilet.

An opinion you're entitled to, and one I can even understand (god help me). Mental health services have a bad rep, one that is often earned. But a little bit of help is better than none at all, and a little bit of health dollars is better than the huge amount spent if the kids turn criminal in our state. That's an easy formula, and one demonstrated again and again in stats and studies.

As for your attitude, Mr. Troll, I've saved my first reaction for last, in the interests of civility:
Please let us know who you are in person, so I can tell you you're an ass to your face.

[Pilgrim]

Dale may have his Ire up... I'm not sure...

If you don't like Mental Health and how it's dealt with here... blame Reagan.

He's the one who killed the federal mental health system and left it up to the states.

[Rorschach]

blame Reagan.

Oh don't worry...I do.
:-)

[FormShaper]

I'm hoping it's Adam. And I hope he's just doing it to yank our chains.

MB

[Da' Boss Troll]

Colorado was, and I think still is, Dead Last in funding mental health dollars for juveniles.

Someplace has to be the voice of reason in a nation filled with folks who want everyone else to pay for their problems.



Please let us know who you are in person, so I can tell you you're an ass to your face.

You say ass, I say brutally honest. Tell me, which would you prefer to hang with, an obsequious toady who pretends to hang on your every word and keeps telling you how smart, how wonderful and how right you are or someone who will tell you when you look like crap or make no sense? At least when you get a "good job" or a "cool model" comment out of me you know I mean it.

But just in case that's not good enough and you want to come by to TP my house here's my name and address...



Herman Munster
1313 Mockingbird Lane
MockingBird Heights, CO ICU812




Just kidding, do you think I'm INSANE!!!!




Unless crap goes WAY wrong I'll be at the store Friday for 40K night. I may bring the Boyz wit me, might not. I've got some questions about rules interpretations still and need to figure out whats what before I start putting my army togather. Just ask for the biggest ass in the room and as long as you're not built like a brick I'll introduce myself.

[Rorschach]

I'll try to stop in for introductions. :-) I'm not upset with honest opinion, even brutally so, even offensive opinion.
But, as Hannibal Lecter would say, I cannot abide discourtesy.
As Jim or someone pointed out already, Donovan was sharing a great and unique experience for him. And one terribly rare in today's political world. It was not polite, actually downright insulting, for the essence and entirety of your first response to be a BFD.

At least congratulate the man first on making effort to be part of the Civic Life. Of all our American virtues, such participation is most valued - had we better leaders stepping forward, would we have as much to truly complain about?

After that, THEN you can try to tear the ideas to shreds if you disagree.

-D

[Da' Boss Troll]

But, as Hannibal Lecter would say, I cannot abide discourtesy.

So you prefer people to lie to you so your ego doesn't get a bruise on it?



As Jim or someone pointed out already, Donovan was sharing a great and unique experience for him. And one terribly rare in today's political world.

Blah blah blah... He had an idea that resonated with the proper demographic of voters that the politico thought he might be weak with. The politico figured he could pick up more votes in the next election if he supported the idea. So he helped a partisan hack return to our state level parliment of whores. Congrats. Now when it comes time to balance the budget those whores will be wanting to steal more money from us to make ends meet.

I'd rather people share their masturbation experiences. At least those dont cost me anything on my quarterly taxes.



It was not polite, actually downright insulting, for the essence and entirety of your first response to be a BFD.

So again, you want people to lie about their opinions when someones ego is apt to be bruised.



At least congratulate the man first on making effort to be part of the Civic Life.

The KKK is all about being a part of civic life, they've got an axe to grind and try to influence politicos to pass laws they want. When they get laws passed that benifit their agenda and crow about it I don't worry about their egos either.

[Stu]

Someplace has to be the voice of reason in a nation filled with folks who want everyone else to pay for their problems.


The idea that mental health is someone else's problem is the central fallacy in your argument.

[Da' Boss Troll]

The idea that mental health is someone else's problem is the central fallacy in your argument.

So, not only food, clothing, shelter and basic health care are everyones problem but now mental health is an excuse to steal my hard earned cash to take care of those who failed to plan for their future? What's next, will I have to pay for hookers for the homeless? Liposuction for the trailer trash? Plastic surgery for the French? When will the madness end?!?

[papaThunder]

So you prefer people to lie to you so your ego doesn't get a bruise on it?


There is a difference between pulling someone aside, and privately suggesting the they loose weight because of the health risks associated with obesity versus publicly pointing out, "Hey, you fat pig! Loose some of that weight before your heart explodes!"

[Pilgrim]

There is a difference between pulling someone aside, and privately suggesting the they loose weight because of the health risks associated with obesity versus publicly pointing out, "Hey, you fat pig! Loose some of that weight before your heart explodes!"

That would be the difference between a normal social interaction and a Forum troll...


Hmmm....


Smells like a troll, looks like a troll, posts like a troll....

[Da' Boss Troll]

There is a difference between pulling someone aside, and privately suggesting the they loose weight because of the health risks associated with obesity versus publicly pointing out, "Hey, you fat pig! Loose some of that weight before your heart explodes!"

But pulling them aside and calmly telling them they are doing something self destructive isn't effective. All the polite conversation in the world wont save someone from themselves.

However mocking them in public has a much deeper psychological effect far more likely to impact them and make them change. Sure it may destroy thier self confidence and make them cawl into a miserable state of self loathing... But that's fun too.

[papaThunder]

Actually, destroying people publicly does not help them at all. It is only a self-serving attempt at trying to elevate how one is perceived by others at the cost of another.

[Stu]

So, not only food, clothing, shelter and basic health care are everyones problem but now mental health is an excuse to steal my hard earned cash to take care of those who failed to plan for their future?

No one plans to be mentally ill.


What's next, will I have to pay for hookers for the homeless?

You already do. I can introduce you to some hookers that take food stamps. Come to think of it, you sound like you could be stand some hookin' up. I mean--with public dental care being as poor as it is, they aren't the best looking, but there are certain trade offs . . .


Liposuction for the trailer trash?

I spend enough time standing in line at Wal-Mart that I would gratefully pay for that myself.


Plastic surgery for the French? When will the madness end?!?

It all ends soon enough. The stars come right on 12/21/12. The great galactic alignment will usher in a new age of wisdom and enlightenment. Until then, you have the congressionally-guaranteed right to bitch about your taxes. I admire the originality of your stance. Fight the power, baby!

[Da' Boss Troll]

Actually, destroying people publicly does not help them at all.

What makes you think I'm trying to help?


It is only a self-serving attempt at trying to elevate how one is perceived by others at the cost of another.

Well, that's one benefit...

[Da' Boss Troll]

No one plans to be mentally ill.

People ought to plan their lives better. Jumping in and starting families before they are ready for emergencies is foolish and not my fault.



I spend enough time standing in line at Wal-Mart that I would gratefully pay for that myself.

Well then go for it, just don't crow on when you convince some self serving politicos to rob me to pay for it too.

[Stu]

People ought to plan their lives better. Jumping in and starting families before they are ready for emergencies is foolish and not my fault.

Mental illness is not a crisis resulting from unplanned families. We don't provide social infrastructure in this country to support citizens' foolishness. We don't tax citizens to punish them for working. There are a number of countries in the wide world that provide no social infrastructure at all. You might be happy in one. I'm sure you could be a mighty warlord. But if you're going to live in America, and you haven't been born into priviledge, you have two choices: work and pay your taxes, supporting those who can't or won't, or don't work and find a social entitlement to feed yourself.



Well then go for it, just don't crow on when you convince some self serving politicos to rob me to pay for it too.

The government doesn't rob you. They tax you. And sometimes take your home via eminent domain. But they don't rob you. That's what a permanent impoverished underclass does when not afforded even the illusion of opportunity or assistance.

[Da' Boss Troll]

Mental illness is not a crisis resulting from unplanned families.

If someone cant afford a trip to the shrink because they spent their money foolishly why should I have to pony up for their problems? If I cant pay my cable bill because I spent all my ready cash on internet porn I don't get a check for the govt to pay Comcast.



We don't provide social infrastructure in this country to support citizens' foolishness.

Some dumb cheerleader gets drunk and knocked up by the quarterback on prom night and I'm stuck with the bill for the next 18 years. A crackhead screws his body up and I get to pay for the hospital stays. Sounds like we are supporting foolishness to me.



But if you're going to live in America, and you haven't been born into priviledge, you have two choices: work and pay your taxes, supporting those who can't or won't, or don't work and find a social entitlement to feed yourself.

So it's suck up and deal with the greater glory of unhindered liberalism as we goose step togather into the future. Steal from the productive and give to the screwups. What a wonderful way of life we have here!



The government doesn't rob you. They tax you. And sometimes take your home via eminent domain. But they don't rob you.

And all that's just perfectly fine with you. Someone works hard and makes something out of thier life and you want some government stooge to come and take it away from him so a worthless welfare queen can watch Jerry Springer in air conditioned luxury. At least you're an honest socialist. Service to the State! Glory to the Nation!

[Stu]

And all that's just perfectly fine with you. Someone works hard and makes something out of thier life and you want some government stooge to come and take it away from him so a worthless welfare queen can watch Jerry Springer in air conditioned luxury. At least you're an honest socialist. Service to the State! Glory to the Nation!

I haven't heard you say anything about how you work hard or how you've made anything out of your life. You don't sound like you're proud of yourself or you value your contribution to society. All I've heard you do is bitterly complain abut people that haven't. You sound jealous of them. As though somehow your miniscule contribution to social service was supporting their life of luxury. Watchin' Springer, baby, livin' the dream!

Clearly, you have such strong and righteous feelings about the subject that I am frankly amazed you even have time to be snivelling about the entitled poor on a gaming forum. Sounds like you ought to be spending every waking moment campaigning for social change in America. You sound uniquely qualified to be the voice of self-sufficency that will turn this country--drowning in its weakness and complacency--back into the economic and social powerhouse it could be without all those pesky mentally ill. Sounds like you have all theanswers and I'm sure you are very involved in the politcal process required to enact change in this country.

Seem like I just read a story somewhere about someone who was involved in using politics to effect necessary change. Oh wait a minute--that was Donavon--not you. Maybe you could PM him to get some tips about how to be an effective part of the process.

[Pilgrim]

I have a new hero!


Technically one of my old heroes but still!

[papaThunder]

Very well said, Stu, as always.

[Da' Boss Troll]

I haven't heard you say anything about how you work hard or how you've made anything out of your life.

I see, you defend a system that rewards failure by attacking the people who point out the problems. How liberal of you.

[Pilgrim]

I see, you defend a system that rewards failure by attacking the people who point out the problems. How liberal of you.


Translation:

I just got owned, and instead of admitting that and moving on, I'm going to act the victim and call names.

[papaThunder]

I see, you defend a system that rewards failure by attacking the people who point out the problems. How liberal of you.

Now calm down, Mr Troll, I am sure we can handle this like the mature adults we all are. Isn't that right, Mr. Poopy Pants!?
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4873/leslieneilsoneb1.gif

[Da' Boss Troll]

Isn't that right, Mr. Poopy Pants!?

More name calling... I thought that's what we trolls are accused of doing.

[Pilgrim]

More name calling... I thought that's what we trolls are accused of doing.

Translation:

I'm too stupid to get a joke from Naked Gun 2 1/2.

[Da' Boss Troll]

Translation:


Aside from a long string of personal insults what exactly did he say?

I suppose we could infer that he likes the idea of multi generational welfare families contributing nothing to the economy besides CO2 and methane but since all he did was name call I'm fuzzy on exactly where he stands on any issues.

Your support of his string of insults implies that you too are in favor of such wastes of resources absorbing wealth and producing only greenhouse gases. Is this attittude common in the gaming community?

[Pilgrim]

Aside from a long string of personal insults what exactly did he say?

I suppose we could infer that he likes the idea of multi generational welfare families contributing nothing to the economy besides CO2 and methane but since all he did was name call I'm fuzzy on exactly where he stands on any issues.

Your support of his string of insults implies that you too are in favor of such wastes of resources absorbing wealth and producing only greenhouse gases. Is this attittude common in the gaming community?

Translation:

Doesn't understand why calling MILITARY FAMILIES societies failures may be a bit off and lumping them in with leaches on society may be kinda stupid... Also doesn't seem to get that there is a difference between some idiot who claims Depression and lives off the Govt. tit for their entire life and people who have REAL persistent Mental illness.

[papaThunder]

Aside from a long string of personal insults what exactly did he say?

I suppose we could infer that he likes the idea of multi generational welfare families contributing nothing to the economy besides CO2 and methane but since all he did was name call I'm fuzzy on exactly where he stands on any issues.

Your support of his string of insults implies that you too are in favor of such wastes of resources absorbing wealth and producing only greenhouse gases. Is this attittude common in the gaming community?


If by "he" you are referring to me, I did not come down on one side or the other. If I agreed with your stance on this issue, I would definatly not admit it here due to the fear of being associated with you.

I also did not insult you. I simply pointed out the lack of social grace in your form of communication.

I pointed out that your trolling was selfish and destructive to others, and you admitted you had no problem with that.

I can see how you could interpret me pointing out your behavior as an insult, since your behavior is insulting.

If you do not want to be insulted, I suggest you do not troll. The reaction you are getting on these forums is not because of your political stance but because of how you are presenting your arguments.

Ass begets Ass.

[angel_lord]

Aside from a long string of personal insults what exactly did he say?


Well you said you like brutal honesty, and then you whine like a whelp when you get it.

And aside form unintelligent, sophomoric claptrap, and "I read it on an Internet site once" drivel - what have you said?

Answer absolutely nothing.

You've asked to have your points addressed, but honestly you have yet to make an intelligent, clearly worded point.

[Stu]

Troll--while I think you brought it on yourself, you just got dogpiled, so I'm going to try to help. Way back on the original post, you could have responded with something like:


Donovan, I appreciate the work you did to advance your cause. However, I am ambivalent about your success because it sounds like it will lead to anther round of tax-payer funded government entitlements. My perception of government entitlements is that they are given too freely and poorly monitored, resulting in recipients being unmotivated to change their circumstances. I work hard to support my family and I value my time and energy. When my tax money is distributed to people with too few strings attached, it makes me feel that my contribution is undervalued and my time is being taken for granted. If I'm going to contribute to the system, I want to feel that my contribution will be directed to meaningful change, and that I am not being taken advantage of.

But you didn't. You dismissed the mental health issues of GIs and their families. You refused to acknowledge the gravity of mental illness or disability. You denied the humanity of people in unfortunate circumstances. You lumped everyone together and implied that they were not worthy of consideration because they were lazy and stupid. To top it off, you had the audacity to demean the way people spent money and time on a forum that--at its most basic level--is about people being joyfully inefficient with their money and their time.

Most of the people on this forum are grateful for the fact that they have the resources to be inefficient. Most of us realize that all it takes is a mild stroke or a motorcycle accident and we might be dependent on entitlements, as well. Many of us have known each other for a long time and have seen each other go through debilitating injuries and illness and mental health issues and family problems, and even being temporarily between gigs. You can be forgiven for not realizing this--the way we throw around the sarcasm and coarse humor--but we have seen each other through some rough patches and most of us have had whatever feelings we had of smug superiority to the rest of the world worn off by time and difficult circumstance.

The thing you did did wrong was to assume that you could make fun of the sick or the poor or the disabled and that we would all just laugh smugly along with you. After all, it's fashionable to demean other human beings. I mean--I get it--it's the troll thing to do. Say the truths that polite society is afraid to admit. Keepin it real, dog. Yeah. But human suffering and misery are real, too, even if the miserable bring it on themselves. Refusing to acknowledge that is unseemly and immature. There are a ton of forums on the net where you can lower your blood pressure making outrageous statements and fencing with those that will play. But this isn't some big, global forum. This is our neighborhood forum, where neighborhood friends schedule games and keep in touch with each other while at work, and regardless of our politics, religion, or other loathesome opinions, we expect more civil discourse.

[Da' Boss Troll]

Troll--while I think you brought it on yourself, you just got dogpiled, so I'm going to try to help. Way back on the original post, you could have responded with something like

But that wouldn't have been my style.


The thing you did did wrong was to assume that you could make fun of the sick or the poor or the disabled and that we would all just laugh smugly along with you.

Everyone laughs at the sick, poor and disabled. Most aren't brave enough to do it in public.

[Stu]

Not everyone, just the ingnorant. You can't be expected to know the difference. I don't imagine anyone else will hang out with you. It must be difficult to go through life knowing what people think of you.

Poor little fella.

[PURGATUS]

Don is my new hero, yo. and seriously, you guys coulda all gotten together yesterday and talked it out. Scott seems cool enough.

can we get back to the original intent of this thread? :)

[Stu]

When you're right, you're right. I should not have spread my criticism out over Troll's social group. I was trying to point out that he was demeaning "everyone" when he made statements about "everyone." But it was unfair.

When you make a statement--in public, presumably in front of your friends and social circle--that your benchmark of personal courage is demeaning people with disabilities, I will advocate for folks with disabilities. It's what I do. It's not really my goal to root out ignarance or rudeness or poor behavior in all is forms, like Solomon Kane rooting out witches. Coarse humor is fine with me (it's my art form), procative statements are OK (remember when I pissed off the board saying that reading was bad?), and challenging provencial thinking is not just OK, it should be mandatory. Those are components of Troll's performance, too. But a little grace and dignity will elevate your sarcasm, dude, your humor will be more effective and people won't think you're an idiot.

But if your mission in life is to battle the powerless, you are an idiot. That's all I really have to say about it.

The original intent of the thread was to tell stories about gamers who could make a difference. Here's something cool that went down last week--a con for GIs in Iraq. Some podcasts wre taking up donations of paper/pencil/gamebooks (I sent a D&D core set and some lucky dice).
http://www.gamegrene.com/node/790

I was going to post a link to Ben Con, also--the state's charity gaming con. But apparently, it's been cancelled. That's too bad, but there was a lot of acrimonious wrangling with Opus Con for a good weekend, which was kinda their own fault. That could've been handled better. I hope it goes down more smoothly next year. It was a great way to game and make a difference.

[Da' Boss Troll]

But if your mission in life is to battle the powerless, you are an idiot. That's all I really have to say about it.

I don't have a mission in life. I have a desire to keep kicking as long as I can as unconnected to machines as possible and worrying about what others think about me adds 20 points to my BP and shaves at least 10 years off my life.

I don't concider the poor to be "powerless". I concider them to be victims of their own poor choices and as such refuse to have pity for them. I don't concider the handicapped to be powerless and the people I know who do have handicaps prefer honesty to pity. As for the sick, I am one of them and I sure as hell don't concider myself powerless. Having a medical condition simply means you need to plan your life better. I don't bother with pity for those who fail to plan.

Most of the people I see who "fall on hard times" aren't victims of some evil cabal of powerful jerks who want to see them squirm. I forclose on houses for banks. When you go into a $200,000 home with multiple big screen TVs and fancy appliances all over the place that some fresh faced college grad and his part time 7-11 employed wife had a intrest only mortgage on I don't feel sorry for them. They got in over their heads and voulentarily signed on for massive amounts of debt. Then when she gets caught dipping in the till and loses her job they can't make the payments and they loose it all. That's stupidity, not bad luck. I refuse to pity them.

Just the same when a PFC gets married and they pump out a couple kids in between deployments I don't see why I need to foot the bill for the wifes mental health. She voulentarily married a soldier. No one held a gun to her head to pump out a couple kids and try to raise them on the pittance a PFC makes. She should have figured her husband was going to spend a lot of time away from home. They should have waited until they were financialy sound enough to weather the problems the lifestyle they chose to live might toss their way. Again, no pity.

I'm looking down the barrel of years of dialysis and the desperate hope that enough kids with type O neg blood will drive their cars into bridge embankments so I can get eventualy get a kidney. I'm not out there trying to figure out how to get all you to pony up the hunderds of thousands of dollars this is going to cost me. My wife and I rearanged our lives, changed our long term plans and have put off having more children so we can deal with this. She wanted to be a stay at home mother, but now must work full time for souless corporations so we can get health insurance. I don't want pity from anyone even though this illness is genetic and in no way could have been prevented. If I can manage to deal with the problems life tossed my way I don't see why others cant get off their butts and do the same.

So call me heartless, I really don't care. But anything that is going to make me have to pony up more of my hard earned cash that could better go toward paying for my own medical bills will never be seen by me as a positive thing.

[Stu]

Let's have an agreement thread, so people can see how that works:


I don't have a mission in life. I have a desire to keep kicking as long as I can as unconnected to machines as possible and worrying about what others think about me adds 20 points to my BP and shaves at least 10 years off my life.

Amen, brother. My personal credo is "What other people think of me is none of my business."


I don't concider the poor to be "powerless". I concider them to be victims of their own poor choices and as such refuse to have pity for them. I don't concider the handicapped to be powerless and the people I know who do have handicaps prefer honesty to pity. As for the sick, I am one of them and I sure as hell don't concider myself powerless. Having a medical condition simply means you need to plan your life better. I don't bother with pity for those who fail to plan.

The disabled are powerless in that they are disenfranchised. Not a lack of personal power, but a daily fight against the idea that idea that it's OK to regard them as sub-human. Challenging that idea is not pity, it's fairness. I don't pity anyone. It's an utterly unproductive response. It leads to entitlement and perpetuation of the idea that nothing can be done for people. Worse, it opens the door for folks with disabilities--who are not automatically more noble than anyone else--to be manipulative and justify their exploitation by the fact that they are still not being treated fairly.

As to the sick, I can see the work you need to do to take care of yourself leading to the frustration you feel when people say they can't or won't do that work. You have pride in your self-sufficiency and your independence entitles you to tell folks in a similar situation: Here's how I did it, you can do it, too. Some won't. We all get frustrated with them. But you can kick them and berate them all you want, and all they will do is say: You're being mean to me! There're other people who can't. You can kick them and berate them, too, and they'll just look at you and say: What do you mean? Some of them are missing a few key skills and can be taught. Some are really, really bad off and can't be taught. There are a variety of reasons for this, but as we watch the population of the country get older and older and sicker, it's something we're going to have to deal with. I can live with most solutions this side of Soylent.

The poor and stupid. Ah, yes. Bless their hearts. What are we going to do with them? There are some brilliant success stories, but there are always more stories of multi-generational women, continuing to have children to maintain their AFDC, continuing to have them over-diagnosed for disabilities like autism or ADD in order to increase their reimbursement, and continuing to fail to care for them. I have 70 files in my classroom, many of which could tell that sory over and over. My frustraton with this situation is deep, personal, and maddening. However. We've allowed this situation to develop since FDR and it's not going to go away overnight. Tough love has been succesful. Time limits on AFDC, paired with self-determination programs have been astonishingly succesful in Wisconsin and Minnesota, and they work in a ot of other places, too. They won't work in Louisiana or Mississippi. They don't work in inner cities anywhere.

My frustration solution would be to close our borders to immigration, identify all the onion-pulling jobs in the southwest that "Americans won't do," and have every welfare mother who's physically sound take her next check in the form of a bus ticket to Milagro. If you want AFDC, pick onions. It is an undeniable urge among people who work hard to take everyone who doesn't, shake them, and make them go work. It would be better for them. They would develop skills and self-esteem. Poverty would decrease. American quality of life would improve. You know that and I know that. But we can't make them. We can't. The discussion is pointless and redirecting the anger brought on by that urge toward the poor is harmful. Don't pity them. Pity's what got this whole situation as bad as it is now in the first place. But insist, firmly, without rancor, that a permanent underclass in America is dangerous and intolerable.

Look at the aftrermath of the hurricanes in New Orleans. It's disgusting. With that example fresh in our minds, it should be an excellent opportunity to effect change. But urban poverty is more complicated that it appears. And if I boldly assert that the best use of my tax money would be to napalm Los Angeles south of I-10, I add to the hysteria, I bring nothing to the solution, and I likely get branded a racist, invalidating any future contribution I might make.


Most of the people I see who "fall on hard times" aren't victims of some evil cabal of powerful jerks who want to see them squirm. I forclose on houses for banks. When you go into a $200,000 home with multiple big screen TVs and fancy appliances all over the place that some fresh faced college grad and his part time 7-11 employed wife had a intrest only mortgage on I don't feel sorry for them. They got in over their heads and voulentarily signed on for massive amounts of debt. Then when she gets caught dipping in the till and loses her job they can't make the payments and they loose it all. That's stupidity, not bad luck. I refuse to pity them.


I think predatory lenders are an evil cabal. However, I have been able to take advantage of risky credit opportunities. I've been abe to get through some tough stuff by using credit afforded to me despite my highly volatile credit rating--so evil or not, I guess I'm glad they're there. But the drones that moved out of college into the house are no less pre-programmed than the welfare mothers. College grads are programmed to think there's "a life" out there for them. Welfare mothers are programmed to think the life they see is "the life" available to them. It's stupid. It's provencial. In both cases, it's an example of people floating along, making choices that put them in hard times. I don't pity them, but I sympathize.

I have made a combination of good and bad decisions that have put me where I'm at. I'm right where I belong. The harder I work, the better things get. But I have made some of my rotton decisions with my eyes wide open, knowing it was a rotton decision, but having reasons of my own for making them. I have otherwise-intelligent friends in interest-only mortgages, some for reasons I understand, some from stupidity. But since I've been stupid at times, it gives me the prspective to help people look clinically at their decisions without the bile or contempt. This understanding extends to most aspects of my life. That's why I teach people that drive other people crazy. Job security, baby.

You must have a taste of that. In your position, I imagine you spend a lot of your day telling people they can't spend money they don't have. If you let it drive you crazy, your blood pressure would blow the top of your head off and drive it into the ceiling. The blank, staring eyes. "What do you mean we need the money first?" You must have skills to lay it out for them coolly. It's like telling narcissists they can't rape children. "What do you mean? I didn't hit them." Repeat after me . . .
Yeah. Some jobs are hard.

[quoe=Da' Boss Troll]Just the same when a PFC gets married and they pump out a couple kids in between deployments I don't see why I need to foot the bill for the wifes mental health. She voulentarily married a soldier. No one held a gun to her head to pump out a couple kids and try to raise them on the pittance a PFC makes. She should have figured her husband was going to spend a lot of time away from home. They should have waited until they were financialy sound enough to weather the problems the lifestyle they chose to live might toss their way. Again, no pity.[/quote]

Again, no request for any. But 18 year old girls aren't going to understand what they're doing, regardless of what you tell them. You have to let that one go. It's unfortunate, but it's pissing directly into the wind. The girls have to learn. The deal is--we can pay a small amount now to coach them through it--like a typical company's Employee Assistance Program--or we can pay a lot later after they've let it go too long and screwed up the finances and the kids and everything else. My company pays for a few reduced-cost counseling sessions a year, to talk about things like high blood pressure and alcoholism and stuff. It wouldn't be fair f a high-stress occupation like infantryman had less access to mental health care than a schoolteacher.


I'm looking down the barrel of years of dialysis and the desperate hope that enough kids with type O neg blood will drive their cars into bridge embankments so I can get eventualy get a kidney. I'm not out there trying to figure out how to get all you to pony up the hunderds of thousands of dollars this is going to cost me. My wife and I rearanged our lives, changed our long term plans and have put off having more children so we can deal with this. She wanted to be a stay at home mother, but now must work full time for souless corporations so we can get health insurance. I don't want pity from anyone even though this illness is genetic and in no way could have been prevented. If I can manage to deal with the problems life tossed my way I don't see why others cant get off their butts and do the same.

Because they aren't as smart, determined, or a resourcesful as you. I don't know you from Adam, but even if you hadn't stated that your illness was genetic, I would not have automatically assumed that you had bown it out being dumb. Kidneys turn on you sometimes. I don't pity you, but I would not have to pity you to assume that being sick wasn't your fault. And if I say that the health care system in this country should be more accessible, that doesn't mean I feel sorry for you. It means only this--some people in the world get a crappy break, and if we as a country are resourceful enough to make that situation more fair, we should do it.

It doesn't mean I want the gubment to buy a bionic hand for the one I didn't get. It means that if there were a way my health insurance could just pay for what it says it's going to pay for when I jump the hoops they ask me to, it would be nice.


So call me heartless, I really don't care. But anything that is going to make me have to pony up more of my hard earned cash that could better go toward paying for my own medical bills will never be seen by me as a positive thing.

And there it is. No one here can argue that health care in America is a mess. I don't think stupidity's going to go away, but you don't have to like it. If we're going to provide social services, they should empower people, rather than perpetuating helplessness.

I still think it's crass to demean the disabled. But I have to say you're the first foreclusure agent with whom I've debated social sevices. That might be one of the Seven Signs.

[MyMyst8k]

If I can manage to deal with the problems life tossed my way I don't see why others cant get off their butts and do the same.

So call me heartless, I really don't care. But anything that is going to make me have to pony up more of my hard earned cash that could better go toward paying for my own medical bills will never be seen by me as a positive thing.

So Scott, shouldn’t we assume you and your wife have declined all medical health insurance? I mean you’re totally entitled to your opinion that you shouldn’t have to support anyone else when they are sick. But it only makes sense they shouldn’t have to pay for your weakness either. Right?

To Tim (PURGATUS): Scott and I actually had a chat last night. I asked him if there was anything he had ‘to say to my face’, or anything he could say ‘man to man’. He plainly admitted to being a Troll. He said he doesn’t believe anything he posts here. Pissing people off allows him to blow off steam, which somehow lowers his blood pressure. Let me repeat that, the only reason he posts here is to piss people off. The reason he doesn’t go somewhere else is because he keeps getting banned from other forums.

So from here on out, we just need to read all of Scott’s posts with ‘Troll colored glasses’. Honestly, there’s nothing he can contribute to this forum because anytime he posts we’ll just have to ignore it as another possible trap for him to lower his blood pressure.

I find it funny so much internet ink has been spilled over this issue. Everyone does realize that Social Services make up about 1% of your taxes right? I mean this is like fighting over the crumbs after a five star banquet has taken place. Oh, and just to set another fact straight. The Bill that passed, SB 146, doesn’t raise taxes at all. It gets its funding from parts of the tobacco settlement already set aside for social services. So pass or fail, this bill didn’t affect the taxes you pay.

To Scott aka Da Boss Troll: I had a couple questions for ya. First, what makes you think you have the right to go around pissing as many people off as you can, just so you can lower your blood pressure? I’m honestly curious to hear your logic. Wouldn’t it be easier to go to a pet store and poke the kittens?

Finally, have you ever heard the theory “You get back from the world what you put out there”? In case you’re wondering, no, I’m not interested in debating its merits (although it seems to be a perfect fit for your philosophy of total self-sufficiency and personal responsibility). All I’m saying is sometimes Karma can be a real b!tch.

[Pilgrim]

Boss troll is now to the point of being so typical it's funny.


normal Troll tactics 101:

Be a jerk
Be a Jerk
Be a jerk


Get called on being a jerk.

Justify it with some sob story.

Sorry Son lots of people get thrown much worse curve balls then you have and go through it without become complete whiny entitled Jerks.

[Asandiril]

Wow. Just "Wow."

First off, Don, good on ya! Glad to see someone making a difference.

Second, Stu, you are a scholar and a gentleman, much more than I. And I still call you a hero :D

And fittingly lastly, Troll/Scott: Pathetic. That's all you are. You come on here to "piss people off," but in the end show your true colors - cowardly and angry.

It's so blatantly clear why you have problems with an issue like this: there's nothing in it for you. You've got a genetic kidney issue, but there's no "safety net" of Government funds for you, who thinks he should be entitled to something because he's a "better citizen/person" than those who are getting assistance. You've indicated it with your long, drawn-out diatribe, of how you've had to "reassess your life," how you'd have more children but your life won't allow that now, how your wife had to go back to work "for soulless corporations" just to get you health insurance. Me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. That right there revealed to the reading public your agenda:
I'm sick, I don't qualify for any type of assitance, I have to do this MYSELF, why should anyone else get any funded help!?

Passive aggression is an artform with you. I applaud your blasé mentality and need to lash out at those weaker than you. You've picked the right moniker here. You truly are a troll, in every pathetic, repulsive definition of the word. Now kindly go crawl back under the rock you've come from. And know this, I for one am laughing UPROARIOUSLY and heartily at you and your condition and your pathetic weakness.

:)

[Pilgrim]

Hey Jason,

Isn't one of the 3 signs of the apocalypse when you and I agree on Something...

I think this is twice now we've agreed... for the good of the universe we may need to start avoiding each other :)

[Stu]

This thing with Ben Con being cancelled is bugging me. That was always one of my preferred contributions every year. So I was thinking . . .
Why do we have to do it as one big charity con every year? I think a better idea would be to have one or two charity events at every con. And just at different times during the year for no particular reason.

Y'know those Star Trek fan vessels? Like the USS Pioneer (http://www.uss-pioneer.com/index.php?page=main)? They are so goofy. I hate to admit it, but they have it right. They only meet in person--as opposed to PbP or open forum once or twice a year, but they always make it charity. I think there's still a Klingon vessel that still does Bat'leth tournys and whatnot. Charge a nominal fee and give it way. It might not be a huge pile of money, but it's a little something, and the players had fun. Two birds, man--two birds.

I think the reason the general cons like Starfest and Mile-Hi Con do this kind of thing so much better than the gaming cons is the huge variety of activities. They haven't always been like that. Starfest used to just look like a big mall--well, a flea market. But they've figured out that certain kinds of inspired goofiness are huge big fun. So now they have all kinds of fun activities.

There's a gaming con I really, really want to find the time to go to, because it has the variety--Con on the Cob (http://www.cononthecob.com/), in Kent, OH. Dig this--they have the Guitar Hero Eternal Jamnation tourny. Wow. You know you want to go. If we could get one game con in Colorado to be as fun as this one looks, we could raise plenty of money on just a few select events. The whole con would not have to be dedicated to charity. The benefit--you wouldn't have so much competition mong cons for gamer dollars during the year.


Also--
For a couple years, I've wanted to put together the massive Darth Vegas Vapor Day Spellathon--a seventy-two hour continual T&T game, over Labor Day (conflicts with Tacticon--I know--unless it could be a part of Tacticon) to raise money for Jerry's kids. You have to or three GMs. Players pay a nominal fee $3 or $5 for a four-hour block of do-gooder gamey goodness, and if there's five to seven players at the table for mst of the game, that's $500 that Jerry's Kids didn't have before. I mean--it wouldn't set any records, but it's that whole killing two birds thing again.
Hey--new thought--if the Star Wars gang wants to do this, we could call it the Mos Vegas Vader Day Kessel Run.

I've also thought about setting up a sort of charity boardgame/pub crawl sort of thing. If anyone's even vaguely interested in this sort of thing, let me know. I think we could do something cool.