Summer Warhammer Escalation League

[livingancestor]

There has been some talk on the boards and around the store from people wanting to either get into Warhammer Fantasy or try out a new army. Well here's your opportunity.

Dale, Jason McAuliffe and I have been kicking around the idea of a summer league. ere are the leage guidelines:

500 pt. starting force (unit minumums are not required - within reason, but army composition is required)
Everyone must play every other league player in a cycle if possible.
A cycle is two weeks.
If you lose your game, your army may add 50 pts worth of troops, if you win, you gain no points.
At the end of the cycle, everyone gets to add 100 pts of troops to their army.
At the end of the cycle, if your army is completely painted, you receive an appropriate 25 pt. or less magic item for your army.
The league will run for 6 cycles.
At the end of the league, the player with the best win/loss record will receive a prize.


If you would like to participate, there will be a sign up sheet posted at the Haven this weekend.

If you have any questions, post them here.

Forrest

[ColGreeley]

Forrest, will the Storm of Chaos lists be allowed? They are being allowed in the 2007 GT's . Just curious.

[livingancestor]

I don't see why not, bu I'll let the two GW gurus answer this one. Dale? Jason?

(You got my vote Troy) :D

[ColGreeley]

I only ask cuz I would love to do an all Slayer army. And Escalation would be great for building it up. If the vote is no, no big deal. And besides this army will probably get beat 9 times out of 10.

Thanks for the vote Forrest. :D

[costampede]

I vote yes for Troy and his Slayers also.

[Rorschach]

Those SOC lists which are allowed for RTTs should be allowed. there's a list in the current RTT thread.

[ColGreeley]

Like I said, it would be fun to play them. And I don't think they would dominate play or actually win that much. But anything that allows me NOT to roll for a test, sign me up. ; )

[Rorschach]

Slayer Lists are still perfectly legal - just use the FAQ I sent you

[ColGreeley]

Is that FAQ online? At the GW site? I accidently deleted it. I know, I am an idiot.

[Rorschach]

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/errata.htm

[ColGreeley]

Thank you! You rule!

[Asandiril]

If the point of this is to try new armies and build up new players, why confuse players by allowing a list that will be void in a few weeks/months?

I vote no for the SOC. And before anyone gets their frilly pink panties in a bunch, consider these points:
1) Slayers and Daemonic Legion are rot through with Fearless and/or Unbreakable units... what fun is that for other armies that depend on such things (Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Skaven, Empire ...), even at 500 points;
2) the Daemonic Legion list can be sickeningly powerful at 500 points, with Fear causing units, multiple saves, high strength, etc., ...;
3) those lists can be effectively duplicated to a point by their approved parent books (yes, I know the Slayers lose Doomseekers, but what self-respecting Dwarf mimics a Gobbo tactic? really now?! :rolleyes: ).

I say keep it simple, just use the standing army books, but it's up to Forrest as he's running this.

[livingancestor]

Am I really in charge? Cool! :cool:

I understand Jason's points. What do you say Troy? Right now you're the only one who is affected. Would you be willing to forgo the Storms of Chaos lists?

[Rorschach]

If the point of this is to try new armies and build up new players, why confuse players by allowing a list that will be void in a few weeks/months?

I thought they were valid for the whole 2007 season at least? Have you heard an actual kill-date for it?

[ZenosTortoise]

I'll go ahead and chime in. I was somewhat hoping to start up an Army of Sylvania list with all the VC bits I've had floating around. On the other hand, tossing off the two bound spells per turn might be a bit much for low point games, I dunno. I have little to no actual experience with Warhammer Fantasy. I picked up a couple of boxes of stuff, but never put much together. And really, if the SoC stuff isn't gonna be used, meh. I'll just play normal VC. :)

[MountainKing]

The Sylvania list would be very unbalanced in 500 pts. I played normal VC in an escalation league a couple of years ago and went undefeated with a necromancer and block of skeletons (my opponents, the heavy cav cheese player of doom included, didn't have enough killing power to keep the dead, well, dead). I shudder to think of what two auto invocations of nehek (no chance of miscast or wizard killing) could do backed up by an armored thrall and whatever else could be squeezed into 500pts. It seems wrong however to say that one supplemental list is ok while another is taboo because it seems too powerful. Maybe SoC and other supplemental list might be better left for RTTs, especially since most of them can be roughly simulated over 500pts anyway (the demonic leagions can just take normal demons, sea patrol can just take seaguard with out the extra turn of shooting, etc)

As to Troy, maybe we could let him field minimal core and troll slayers, and allow him to take either a giant or a dragon slayer as his commander. That way he is using a legal list to build toward his 7th ed slayer army, nobody feels that a 'illegal list' is ruining the campaign or that anybody is getting special treatment or an unfair advantage, and everybody is happy, in theory.

Speaking of what is a legal 500 pts, will you be using the warband rules (unit minimums affect when a unit can get command not whether it is a legal unit, champions can lead the warband, special/rare restrictions etc)?

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/warbands/warbands.htm

[Rorschach]

While the Sylvania list might rock at 500, it'll suck later on...at least that's been my observation.

[costampede]

?, when we build our lists for this League can we take magic items as normal for the characters or units that are allowed to have a magic banner?

[Rorschach]

?, when we build our lists for this League can we take magic items as normal for the characters or units that are allowed to have a magic banner?

I don't see why not...

[SgtBrowncoat]

Depending on a few things, this sounds hgood to me! I need an excuse to get my Orcs and Goblins painted up. My only concern would be that I don't want it to conflict with Tim's 40k league.

[livingancestor]

Well, since someone said I was in charge (big mistake guys), I will rule that if an army list is legal now, it is playable in the league.

The sign up sheet is posted at the Haven by the cash register.

[costampede]

Troy, will you sign me up. I will not be getting to the store until Wednesday.

[Asandiril]

Well, since someone said I was in charge (big mistake guys), I will rule that if an army list is legal now, it is playable in the league.

The sign up sheet is posted at the Haven by the cash register.
Sweet. Now I'll just throw my fights versus anyone playing from SoC, preventing them from gaining 50 points a loss and GAINING 50 points from them "beating" me. :D

Though that's not very Orky... oh!, yeah, I'll be playing my Orcs for this, since it's an army that I have laying about... even less built up than my High Elves (and I'd rather wait for their new Army Book.... :p ).

[ColGreeley]

The whole idea of this League is for new people to get involved in Fantasy OR for people to try a NEW army. That was my intention when I asked if I could play the Slayer list. And remember, any shooting army or strong magic army will CRUSH me everytime as I get NO ARMOR SAVES. But if this is going to create a problem, I will not play them. I want the League to be successful for the reason it was created. To allow new players the chance to learn the game or for people to try new stuff.

[lambobolt]

OK, so i know im not there so my vote doesnt really matter, but if i was, here is what i would say. As Forrest declared, if the army is legal for a GT, then it is legal for this campaign. and yes, the focus is on new players and new armies. So what better way to learn the game than have to account for unbreakable dudes? have you seen what slayers get for 500pts? here is a sample list i just played with on army builder: dragon slayer with 50 pt runic weapon as general (he is a hero choice), one unit of 12 slayers with musician and standard, one unit of 13 slayers with great weapons with musician and standard, and one doomseeker. that is it. yes, essentially two characters (the hero and the doomseeker) and two units of 12/13 slayers. all of whcih move a whopping 3, whcih means 6 inches during their move since they can always march move. at that move, it takes them 4 turns to get across the table to the enemy deployment zone, so against a smart player that means turn 5 is soonest they could get into combat, assuming they are not shot/magiced to death as the cross the table. and against a frail army like elves, who have chariots and knights with charge range of 14+ and normal troops charging 10, the slayers would be outmaneuvered and most likely charged in the flanks, again, assuming they are not already shot down before they get across.
so yes, i completely agree the spirit of the campaign is to teach new people, and at 500 pts, i dont know how anyone can say they are unbalanced. now when you start getting to 1500-2000 pts, a slayer army could be brutal against a brand new player. but hopefyully before you get to that point a new guy has learned to rules, learned his own army, and knows how to use it against an army like slayers. and if not, then they should ask some of the mentors around to see what they recommend.
overall, i dont see how a new player, lets say a new guy even playing something like chaos, would quit the game because they played against troy's slayers. first of all, troy is not that kind of player that is out to kill someone so terribly that they want to quit. and second, ive seen troy roll dice! but seriously, is the slayer list, or any other SoC list, really that unbalanced at 500-1000 points?
For what it matters, if i was there, i would be playing...High Elves, since it would give me an excuse to paint them up and have some ready for the new army book release this fall. Now, how do i get a TDY back to C-springs every other week??

[Asandiril]

From an Elf point-of-view, the Slayer list is still brutal even at that low of a level. Multiple attacks, Unbreakable (so why even worry about taking combat res boosting items... just go for 1 point higher), wounding on a 4+ all the time (and Strength modified to what they need to wound your Toughness... meaning Armor mods can come in against higher Toughnesses), and always being able to move at least 6" a turn.

Shooting? We'd be at 4+ until you get to 15", then have only two turn of 3+ until you hit us... IF we took ample shooting. Regardless we're wounding on 4+ (and what about those Slayer skills you can take?). Our infantry is on par (hits on 4+, wounds on 4+) but if we're charged we're toast. Cavalry can be stopped by a Hero Slayer with that damnable combo Jeff kiped from the 'Dwarf. And Cavalry is EXPENSIVE in 500 points, especially if you want to have a least one hero, possibly even a mage (remember, while unit compositions are waived, you still have to meet/abide ARMY composition which indicate the minimum Core and maximum Characters/Specials/Rares you can field).

But the Slayer list is the least of the lists in SoC I'd have issue with. Yes, it is easier to handle; yes, it's got built in faults. But open the door for one list, the rest can be debated in.

And we're having to make lists that can handle all-comers, since we have to play each other player in the league at least once. So yes, I could maul Slayers with a shooting focused High Elf army, but Chaos/Orcs/Beasts/Ogres would decimate me, and traditional Dwarfs/Empire/other Elves would play snipe-fest. Skaven would just mob me and pick our bones clean.

I'm all for having fun, playing the game to play the game, and trust me I'd benefit from being able to play a Sea Guard list (oh all the beautiful SHOOTING!), but that's just one facet of the High Elves and we should promote players learning their ARMY, not one part (no matter how cool).

And in the end, it is Forrest's final decision, which he's made. So the above has all been moot.
:rolleyes:

No matta, da orcs uv da Red Axe Tribe is gonna stomp an stomp an stomp til dere's nuffink left movin dere ta stomps, den we'z go and fin somefink else ta stomp! So sez Morg Grotstrangla!

[konaboy]

Forrest,

Great idea for this. Hopefully we can get more new players involved and build up the gamer base. I'll sign up this Wednesday at the store. Hopefully this will give me the push to get the skaven finally painted (but I said that with the campaign so we'll see! :) )

David

[Shadowz]

Hey Forrest!

I'd like to participate!

Questions-

When is the latest we can sign up at the store?
When will we able to play games in the league?
How will the games and results be keep track of?

Thanks for running this league!

-Patrick

[Rorschach]

Remember, not ALL of the SoC lists are legal anymore. Ardboyz are out for instance(which was annoying because I don't think I can use my fav Orc special character anymore).

As for disparities, they'll even out as the pts go higher. Slayers can be beaten by outmanuevering - bring enough force to slaughter a single unit before you move on to the next one. Only Dwarves, Empire, and Wood Elves have the reall shooting power to just gun them down. High And Dark elves, for now, still suffer from Gav Thorpe's decision that elf archery somehow shouldn't be as good as Dwarves. :D

[FormShaper]

I may have to start assembling my Empire forces at last.

MB

[Asandiril]

WHAAAA? :confused:

Baz will bless us with his presence and come down from Denver to play WFB with us?

:D

[CJSmith]

Depending on when games are being played I would love to jump in on this with my new Empire force or to actually restart my Dwarfs fully. If there is a sceduled day for the battles then count me in but if it is just the basic Wednesday nights or whenever it can be arranged with others, I don't think I can attend.

Also, when would this be starting exactly? I don't have any of my empire even assembled yet, and my dwarfs aren't much better off outside of my old figures.

[livingancestor]

Remember, not ALL of the SoC lists are legal anymore. Ardboyz are out for instance

Dale, could you post the Storms of Chaos lists that are legal and not legal? Thanks

[livingancestor]

When is the latest we can sign up at the store?
When will we able to play games in the league?
How will the games and results be keep track of?


I would like to have all the sign ups done by Saturday 6/16 if possible. We'll start within a few days of that. Probably 6/23. Army lists will be turned in by then as well.

You can play your games whenever you can get them in, within the two week cycle. Scheduling is up to you and your opponents.

There will be a leader board hanging at the Haven as well as the results will be posted here on the forum.

[Rorschach]

Here's the list of allowed armies again:
Bretonnians
* Warhammer Armies: Bretonnia
* Storm of Chaos (Errantry War) Download PDF (36 KB)

Chaos
* Warhammer Armies: Hordes of Chaos
* Warhammer Armies: Beasts of Chaos
* Storm of Chaos (Archaon’s Horde) Download PDF (68 KB)
* Storm of Chaos (Daemonic Legion) Download PDF (80 KB)
* Mounted Daemonettes may be taken (White Dwarf 283). Download PDF (56 KB)

Chaos Dwarfs
* Army List - Download PDF (62KB) FAQ - Download PDF (241 KB)
Please use this PDF and not the Ravening Hordes list as there are a few small differences.

Dark Elves
* Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves
* Storm of Chaos (Dark Elf Cult of Slaanesh) Download PDF (56 KB)

Dogs of War
* Dogs of War may be fielded as an army per the rules on the Games Workshop web site or Warhammer Chronicles. Download Part 1 PDF (740 KB) | Download Part 2 PDF (708 KB)
* Dogs of War may also be selected by other armies as Rare choices (per the restrictions in the individual Army books).
* Regiments of Renown may be selected from the list on the GW web site. Download PDF (20 KB)
* Dogs of War Giants may be selected by other armies as Rare choices (per the restrictions in White Dwarf 315). Download PDF (268 KB)

Dwarfs
* Warhammer Armies: Dwarfs
* Storm of Chaos (Slayers of Karak Kadrin) Note: please refer to Dwarf FAQ for using this army in Seventh Edition. Download PDF ( KB)

Empire
* Warhammer Armies: Empire

High Elves
* Warhammer Armies: High Elves
* Storm of Chaos (Lothern Sea Guard) Download PDF (60 KB)

Lizardmen
* Warhammer Armies: Lizardmen (Southlands list is also permitted.)
* Warhammer Realms: Lustria (The Red Host of Tehenhauin – Tehenhauin must lead this army as detailed in the Lustria supplement.) Download PDF (236 KB)
* Sacred Hosts (White Dwarf 299) are permitted. Download PDF (684 KB)

Ogre Kingdoms
* Warhammer Armies: Ogre Kingdoms
* Due to unforeseen circumstances, Rhinox Rider Rules (from any source) are not allowable for any Grand Tournament or Games Day Tournament.

Orcs & Goblins
* Warhammer Armies: Orcs & Goblins

Skaven
* Warhammer Armies: Skaven
* Storm of Chaos (Clan Eshin) Download PDF (52 KB)
* Warhammer Realms: Lustria (The Bubonic Court of Nurglitch) Nurglitch must be taken to field this army as detailed in the Lustria supplement. Download PDF (520 KB)
* Deathmaster Snikch may be taken (White Dwarf 295). Download PDF (116 KB)

Tomb Kings
* Warhammer Armies: Tomb Kings

Vampire Counts
* Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts
* Storm of Chaos (Army of Sylvania) Download PDF (60 KB)

Wood Elves
* Warhammer Armies: Wood Elves

[livingancestor]

Very comprehensive. Thank you Dale.

There are your choices guys.

[Asandiril]

???

So the Orcs & Goblins and Middenheimers get boned? And their lists are the least offensive! Even the Skaven get to keep their Eshin list.

WTF, mate? {brownie points to who can name the quote...}

I now can not fathom the mind of the GW GD staffers? Bunch of blighting wankers...

[Rorschach]

So the Orcs & Goblins and Middenheimers get boned? And their lists are the least offensive!

Wanna bet it has solely to do with the Orc and Empire books being the most recent?
"Oi...Boss, can we retrofit these lists to the new Army books in a White Dwarf article? What about all those guys who've bought Boargut Facebeater, or the Middenheim characters?"

"What...and give up advertising space for the new LOTR supplement, Galadriel's Panty Drawer? Are you mad, man? They'll take what we give them, and LIKE it!"

-D

[Rorschach]

Quick question, which I wasn't sure about:

Can we modify our lists game to game or cycle to cycle? What about when adding 50pts or 100?

Just trying to plan Orcs and Goblins in a meaningful way... :-)

[umbraedominus]

yes i do believe i will need to know an answer to dales Question as well. and as for the whole which list is cool or not. here is my two cents.

i know we are building and playing for fun but we also need to help these new players and some of our other players learn to build for all opponents if some of them wish to move on to RTT which you may have to face a wide variety of lists depending on who shows up

so i don not believe that any list which is legal should be boo'd it should be cheered as so we can learn the list and have a general understanding of what each army can do

[umbraedominus]

yes i do believe i will need to know an answer to dales Question as well. and as for the whole which list is cool or not. here is my two cents.

i know we are building and playing for fun but we also need to help these new players and some of our other players learn to build for all opponents if some of them wish to move on to RTT which you may have to face a wide variety of lists depending on who shows up

so i don not believe that any list which is legal should be boo'd it should be cheered as so we can learn the list and have a general understanding of what each army can do

[Wehrmacht]

Are you going to limit special characters?? I mean some people like over do it:)

[Rorschach]

The official GW stance now is that Special Characters are just another part of the list. So if its a LEGAL special (on their Website or in the Army book), then its useable.

As for revising lists -
Between games, I'm not sure until I talk to Jason and/or Forrest. It would seem to make sense, becaue how else do you learn?

Between Cycles, it would be an absolute necessity. You generally can't add 100pts or whatever in nice round units.

[Wehrmacht]

Thats fine, but there are some individuals that go over board when it comes to their Generals and special characters. Which makes the game less fun for new players. Who wants to play a person that has a general that can kill their whole army??

[Shadowz]

So Wehrmacht-
My army will be destroyed in 10 minutes and I can then add 50 points to my army and move on?......and the problem is?

Okay...I see your point....

How about in the first 500 point list can have a maximum of 200 pts for the general?

That's my thought.

Or it can be 400 pts and we all make rude comments to the player....every day....for years....in the newspapers.....the internet....the Motor Vehicle Dept....in the snow on his front door....forever.....

[Rorschach]

Considering
there's almost no Specials that aren't Lords,
we can't use Lord Characters until we hit 2000pts,
none of them are game breakers at 2K and up,
and if they're a regular part of the game, people need to learn how to beat them, I say keep em in.
Otherwise, we might as well start banning Giants, Greater Daemons and the Bretonnian Lance formation...'cause those are all army breakers for new players too.

[costampede]

Wehrmacht, what are you complaining about now. Suck it up and be a man. :D

[Zhukov]

I would like to play but there is not any way I could play as much as the league requires. As many games that could be managed in one day or evening a week is about the maximum. Will that be enough?

[Wehrmacht]

Stampde... Shut it:)
I'm just curious thats all. I'm not saying get rid of anything. All I'm saying is that if a new person wants to learn the game and he/she gets the living #$@* kicked out of them because some over zelous player has a special character or super general. I doubt they will want to play the game again. Thats all:)

I dont even know if I can play. Since some of us have to work unlike others:) No names mentioned:) Hee He

[Rorschach]

Ernie, I share your worry about time commitment. I thought I saw a clarification on the number of games to be played somewhere, but I can't find it. It will ahve to be a reasonable amount to be done in 2 weeks. Like 2 games...

[ColGreeley]

We are currently at 16 people for this League. That is a great number. Lots of new names on there as well, and that is what this league is about.

[Zhukov]

Ernie, I share your worry about time commitment. I thought I saw a clarification on the number of games to be played somewhere, but I can't find it. It will have to be a reasonable amount to be done in 2 weeks. Like 2 games...

That is feasible. I would like to sign up if there is still room.

[costampede]

Wehrmacht, you are such a baby, we all know that you are the one afraid of going up against a tough opponent. :p

At lower point games your general would probably kick @$$ and leave a bad taste in your opponents mounth. Your are the king of cheese. :D

[Wehrmacht]

Keep talking Mr. Swiss:) I would love to play but I dont think I can do it with my work schedule being all jacked up.

[MountainKing]

Hmmm...well if sylvania is in I may just have to abuse the heck out of the shambling dead. Then again, the peasant crusade calls too. Choices, choices.

As to army killing generals, i don't think anyone but chaos can come up with that kind of cheese at less that 2000 pts, special characters included (the only named hero I know of is bugman and he can't be the general and isn't game altering anyway). That is assuming your army has more substance than one unit and a character or two.

[wtf mate, thank you Australia] California will hang out with Hawaii. Alaska can come too.

[CJSmith]

So, this Saturday is the beginning of the league then? I dont see a whole lot of information in this thread on when this will all be starting, more or less what is allowed. And our lists are due then also, correct? So then what time will we be gathering to get started? As I live out of town I need to know because I can't just stop by the store whenever I want, but I would like to participate as much as I can in this.

[konaboy]

I was just about to ask the same thing Casey did - when is the official start and are we assigned certain opponents during the cycle or is it just who we can get a game in against? Any clarification would be appreciated! :)

[Rorschach]

I'll try to post some more info tomorrow to clarify things in case Forrest isn't able to...kinda rushed at the moment though.

[costampede]

My understanding was we were going to delay the start until Forrest felt better to help run it and participate in it.
I could be wrong.

[ColGreeley]

That is my understanding as well.

[Rorschach]

See...nobody tells me anything...

Jason and Forrest, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere:
So we'll probably delay the start for Forrest until after July 4th, which would mean a true start time on July 14th.
Here's the set-up and rules as I understand them:

-- You start with 500pts.
-- After each loss, you gain 50pts.
-- Every 2 weeks is a full cycle completion.
-- At the end of every Cycle, you gain 100pts (or should it be 200?)
-- At the end of every Cycle, if your army so far is fully painted (per the Judges) you gain 25pts to spend exclusively on Magic items.
-- You cannot play the same person twice until you have played EVERYONE once. Exceptions may be made for dropouts and other special circumstances, if Judges allow.
-- If you do not play at least ONE game in a Cycle, you are OUT.
-- The League will run for 6 Cycles (12 weeks).
-- Best Win Loss Record will be the Winner. Ties will likely go into a "Playoff".

Some additional clarifications:
-- The cap is 2000pts.
-- Army lists only change as points are added. You can fill out existing units, buy new magic items for characters or Standards, or add whole new units and characters. You CANNOT "break down" a unit for its points and re-spend those on a different army construction.
-- Points can be "saved" from game to game, cycle to cycle, until you have enough to buy the unit/character/etc you want.
-- Lists with all changes must be turned in before the start of each Cycle. Judges will evaluate and check. Mistakes will be rectified as Judges decree.
-- ALL games must occur at Gamer's Haven
-- Scenarios are to be decided upon by both players. Default is the standard Pitched battle (or whatever its called now).
-- Player's are encouraged to use the Nemesis Crown scenarios, if possible, and report their results online.
-- Ties will likely be figured into Win-Loss Records as Ties (Forrest? Jason?). Check the new rules for the Tie thresholds.

-- As always, cheaters will be devoured by trained squigs and vermicious knids.

Any questions?
-dale

[ColGreeley]

There are 19 people singed up for this. If you get the chance, stop by the store and check out your fellow players. Remember what this League is all about. It is a chance for new people who have not had the chance to play much WFB the opportunity to play and for others to play new armies they might have been curious about. And above all, everyone should have fun!

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Is it too late to sign up, Troy? I completely forgot about this and wanted to get in on the action.

[ColGreeley]

What is the name? And what army would you be fielding?

[CJSmith]

Ok this is much better, good to see all the details and start-up information, and dates. One thing I should mention though is that from July 16th till about a week or so I might not be able to make it up there, so I will have to get in a few games on the 14th. That shouldnt be a problem with only 500 points.

[Rorschach]

Yeah, all you really have to ask yourself is, "Can I do about 20 games or more in 12 weeks?"

I really like the idea of "collecting" games against the other 19 people...

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

C'mon, Troy. This is Matt, with the hoighty-toighty-pointy-eared high elf princelings. After all the trash talking we did last month, I'd hoped you'd remember that.

Stunties. I swear. Sheesh.

[ColGreeley]

Sorry, too many online names trying to keep everyone straight. I will sign you up.

[Rorschach]

After all the trash talking we did last month, I'd hoped you'd remember that.
Stunties. I swear. Sheesh.

Its not that Troy's a Squat...it's just that he's old. All that metal melts your brain after a while... :D ;)

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Its not that Troy's a Squat...it's just that he's old. All that metal melts your brain after a while... :D ;)


Pot? Meet kettle!

[Rorschach]

Who are you again? Get off my lawn! Where are my glasses? Who stole my socks?

[Asandiril]

Looks good, Dale. Just about everything plus some that we had discussed via priv. Just have to hear back from the Old One, now.



See...nobody tells me anything...

Jason and Forrest, please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere:
So we'll probably delay the start for Forrest until after July 4th, which would mean a true start time on July 14th.
Here's the set-up and rules as I understand them:

-- You start with 500pts.
-- After each loss, you gain 50pts.
-- Every 2 weeks is a full cycle completion.
-- At the end of every Cycle, you gain 100pts (or should it be 200?)
-- At the end of every Cycle, if your army so far is fully painted (per the Judges) you gain 25pts to spend exclusively on Magic items.
-- You cannot play the same person twice until you have played EVERYONE once. Exceptions may be made for dropouts and other special circumstances, if Judges allow.
-- If you do not play at least ONE game in a Cycle, you are OUT.
-- The League will run for 6 Cycles (12 weeks).
-- Best Win Loss Record will be the Winner. Ties will likely go into a "Playoff".

Some additional clarifications:
-- The cap is 2000pts.
-- Army lists only change as points are added. You can fill out existing units, buy new magic items for characters or Standards, or add whole new units and characters. You CANNOT "break down" a unit for its points and re-spend those on a different army construction.
-- Points can be "saved" from game to game, cycle to cycle, until you have enough to buy the unit/character/etc you want.
-- Lists with all changes must be turned in before the start of each Cycle. Judges will evaluate and check. Mistakes will be rectified as Judges decree.
-- ALL games must occur at Gamer's Haven
-- Scenarios are to be decided upon by both players. Default is the standard Pitched battle (or whatever its called now).
-- Player's are encouraged to use the Nemesis Crown scenarios, if possible, and report their results online.
-- Ties will likely be figured into Win-Loss Records as Ties (Forrest? Jason?). Check the new rules for the Tie thresholds.

-- As always, cheaters will be devoured by trained squigs and vermicious knids.

Any questions?
-dale

[FormShaper]

-- You cannot play the same person twice until you have played EVERYONE once. Exceptions may be made for dropouts and other special circumstances, if Judges allow.


Can we amend this slightly? With 20 people in the league, I guarantee not everyone will be able to tweak their schedule to play everyone else - even over the extended duration of the league. I get the intent of this rule, but I think a similar result could be achieved by requiring only 9, or even 5, different players before rematching.

MB

[CJSmith]

Ok, nevermind guys, I will not be able to attend this with the amount of games that this requires. I have a huge commission work schedule ahead of me for the rest of the summer and probably wont touch a Warhammer figure for another year, so count me out. I hope for the rest of you that do participate that you have fun and hope that it brings in a few new people to the tournaments.

[Asandiril]

Baz (Formshaper) - I think that's an idea. Forrest/Dale? What say you? I'm amenable to 5-9 before repeat. That's still a lot of games in against everyone.

[ColGreeley]

I talked to Forrest last night and he said he would like if people tried to play as many other people as they could. The whole idea of this League for people to play against new opponents and new armies and to have fun and learn the game.

[Rorschach]

I'm split...I like the challenge aspect of "collecting" games with other players. "Gotta get 'Em All!"
At the same time, I don't want to see players idle because they're down to 5 people who just aren't available.

The minimum of a game per cycle should help a bit, but not enough to insure constant games...hmmmm....

How about this idea set:
-- Players must play HALF (round down) the current players before they repeat (For now, that's Nine)
-- Players who play 2/3rds (currently 14 people) gain an immediate 200pts (up to the usual maximum of 2000pts)
-- Players who play ALL current players may immediately remake their Army List however they see fit, within their current points cap. All bonus points, magic items, etc, may be "cashed in" and re-spent as the player sees fit.

We are using a Max size of 2000pts right? Or is their no max?

This should give that extra incentive to try and play as many different as possible. If you've already collected 9 players, those 5 more would be tempting.

We could also have a special award for the Most Games and/or Got 'Em All player.

-D

[Warmaster]

I would really like to play in this but it's hard driving down from Denver. Are you going to try to at least set up a league day for people to show up in general, it would make it easier for me to get multiple games done in a day? And if so can I talk you into doing it on the weekend :).

[ColGreeley]

Weekends can be tough for setting up a League Day as that is usually when we do events or Tournies. With the popularity of 40K , WFB, Warmachine and Flames of War, just to name a few, space is usually limited on the weekends.

[Warmaster]

I'm not in there that frequently but I don't usually see a whole lot going on in the store on Sunday's.

[ColGreeley]

Well, if people want to do Sundays, that is great. The only thing that goes on is the 2nd Sunday of each month is Flames of War Day. We are open from 12-6. If people want to do a Sunday League Day for this, that would be cool. That way, Rich could play. :D

[ColGreeley]

So could Casey if he wanted to.

[FormShaper]

Dale -

I like the idea of rewarding people who collect games (I picked 9 as a number because it was half at the time). Maybe a special prize overall for whoever plays the most diverse set of opponents? I.e. someone who gets in all 20 or whatever opponents beats anyone who doesn't; someone who plays 2 games with everyone beats one who plays 40 games but only 1 with a few opponents.

Rich - I should be living in Denver for most of this league. We could get our game sin up here, and possibly carpool a few times.

MB

PS - I shall resist the urge to take a steam tank. Initially, at any rate.

[SgtBrowncoat]

I am not sure about a particular league day working too well for me, especially sunday, wich is basically the only day of the week that absolutely doesn't work for me. But if things are fairly free-form (Schedule and play as we can) then I don't see any problem with a league day as a good day for picking up league games, and people that can't make the day can get thier games the other way. Or folks can schedule multiple games for days they will be available. I guess my point is I don't think the "league day" thing is a big deal one way or the other.

[Asandiril]

I'm not a fan of rewarding for "collecting" multiple games, since only a few could benefit. The structure of the League is equality for ALL playing, not "playing ALL." This would just reward those that don't have a life outside of gaming, while penalizing those of us with odd work schedules/family responsibilities/minimal free time. So I say "No" to benefits for playing half/two-thirds/all.

I'm also in the crowd of "get your games when you CAN," since I really only have Wednesdays free and can squeeze in a Saturday or two. Two kids, a full time job, moving into a new home, in-laws visiting in July and Morgan going to school in August kind of cut into my available gaming time. Add to that my multiple painting projects and gaming time drops drastically. So when I do have time, I'd like to be able to play as many games then as I can, not have to restructure my time so I can get to League night. And I'm sure there are others who rather have the "get as many games in the cycle when you can" crowd... So I vote "No" on having a set "League Night" beyond every other Wednesday for the cycle times.

My biggest thing with Leagues is KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. The more we add on to the rules/guidelines, the more fiddly bits we get, the more it can break down or get broke by "enterprising" players. The current incarnation would work fine with a clarification of the "no repeats" clause. Having to play 5-9 others before getting back to someone is really not all that hard in a two week cycle and especially not in today's age of electronic messaging... the Haven is open 6 days a week, the forum and email work 24/7, arrange your games when you can, lay down a challenge or two and PLAY.

Just a curmudgeon's zwei pfennig. :D

[Rorschach]

I think of bennies for playing more folks as more of an Incentive than a Reward. But it is the drawback that some can easily take advantage, while others cannot. (Same problem plagues the PP leagues right now).
So the value judgment has to be, which do we value more: Extra-Fair Campaign or More Games Played?
Since this was more of a "get new guys playing" events to start with, I assumed the latter.

But I could go either way.

A League night generally won't work for me. In the PP leagues, we've found that a regular night will naturally develop. But its just as easy to use this medium of the Forums to set up plenty of weekly games.

[lambobolt]

what happened to the good old days of running a campaign and having people show up and play! the last campaign went very well, having Wed night as campaign nights, but leaving the actual playing to whatever the players arranged. Sure, the idea is to help the new guys (atleast that is what i gathererd from reading this painful thread as it unfolded), but it seems that it is straying from teh intent. Now, several more weeks have gone by, and still not many folks showing up at the store to play.
Leave it as play as many as you can between rounds. for some that might only be two, others it will be 10 (as jason and dale pointed out). but rewarding or incentives are not fair to all the players, so dont do it. the incentive and reward for those that play more is that they become better players, play more games, learn more about their army and those they play against. it shouldnt have to be more than that.
if i was there (which unfortunately im not right now, but im working on a TDY to come back), i say pick a day to do a big kickoff event. have everyone show up to go over the rules, and start playing! that is the purpose of the campaign, to play and show up at the store. trust me, now that im away from teh Haven game, i really do miss having that wed night warhammer night. and it seems the longer the campaign takes to get started, the harder it will be to re-establish the player base.
Other thing, of the people that have signed up, how many are really new players or players playing new armies? if there are not any, then make it a more challenging campaign. then the incentives could be more than just playing.

I know, this is an opinion from somehow who isnt there right now, and im not seeing the wed night crowd, but seems like lots of consternation over rules, and not enough fighting on the battlefield!!!

[FormShaper]

I think of bennies for playing more folks as more of an Incentive than a Reward. But it is the drawback that some can easily take advantage, while others cannot.

Bonus points for your army would actually be not-quite-negligible. How many points are you getting for losing a game? Worst-case, multiply that by 19. Compare now to your suggested 200-pt bonus. If the player has actually lost that many, he probably NEEDS the bonus (unless his name is Troy of course).

Even an average record (lost 9, won 9), an extra 200 points shouldn't be too extreme.

Drop the bonus to 100, and it becomes even more reasonable.

And, after all, this IS an escalation league! What's the harm in encouraging people to escalate? Is there a fantastic cash prize of which I have not been made aware? Because, if so, please ignore my steam tank comment a few posts back.

MB

[ColGreeley]

Mike, what the hell was that for? ; )

And remember, this is a FUN League, not a campaign. It was designed to get new players involved and to let players try new armies.

[livingancestor]

I have to agree with Jason's KISS Principal. Points for this and points for that become a pain in the a**. 200 pts at the end of each cycle, 50 pts per loss and a 25 pt magic item if your army is painted at the end of a cycle would seem enough to me.

The idea of having to play everyone before you could play someone a second time was to stop the abusers (You know who you are). If we simply said that you can't play the same person twice in a cycle SHOULD be enough. The person who has played the most different opponents would be declared the winner in the event of a win/loss record tie.

Thoughts?

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Works for me. My only question is about the 25 point item for being painted: is that a FREE 25 points for one magic item?

[livingancestor]

Yup. Free. Above any other points you have accumulated.

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Nifty.

[FormShaper]

Sounds good.

MB

[Rorschach]

Should we have a restart thread, once we have a new start date? I can summarize the above then...

[livingancestor]

Start date is the Saturday after the 4th of July, the 7th, I believe. I will have a win/loss record sheet posted at the Haven then. Dale, work your magic. :D

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Since the start date got moved back, just some forewarning: I won't be back from block leave in New England until the 15th, so instead of being short one day, I'll be short eight.

FYI.

[Rorschach]

I'll post a recap- new thread tomorrow.

[konaboy]

That's the spirit - let's set a few ground rules and get the battles started! :)
Seriously though, the biggest thing I want to do is just play and have fun. The simpler we can keep it the better for all. It sounds like you all have come up with a good set of rules to do that. I'm looking forward to getting the skaven into some good fights.

[lambobolt]

Hey David,
Good choice of words "getting the skaven into some good fights." i like how you didnt say "have the skaven beating up on the rest of you..." that sort of leaves it open for some of us butt heads to jump in and start the trash talking... now if there was only some way that i can get back to Colorado Springs every wed night to participate...

Just remember, eventually everyone comes back to the dark side of chaos.

[Rorschach]

now if there was only some way that i can get back to Colorado Springs every wed night to participate...

Well, I've got the Warp Gate set up on this end... just erect some warpstone plinths, the right words, a few dozen virgin sacrifices and you're set to go! :D

[Asandiril]

Just want clarification on one thing: the free 25 point item

Is this OVER AND ABOVE the normal limitation, meaning if my Hero already has 50 points of magic items, I can add ANOTHER 25 point item to him?

Or does this mean I can add a FREE 25 point item to my army, thus making it 525 points to start... technically? But I still have to meet the restrictions inherent in the army (so a Hero at 50 points of magic can't have any more... but one without any magic can have the 25 point item and it doesn't count towards his total...?).

[Laplace]

Just want clarification on one thing: the free 25 point item

Is this OVER AND ABOVE the normal limitation, meaning if my Hero already has 50 points of magic items, I can add ANOTHER 25 point item to him?

Or does this mean I can add a FREE 25 point item to my army, thus making it 525 points to start... technically? But I still have to meet the restrictions inherent in the army (so a Hero at 50 points of magic can't have any more... but one without any magic can have the 25 point item and it doesn't count towards his total...?).

Of course I'm not the authority but if I interpret it correctly, if you are asking if a char/champ/etc. can have above the legal points for items, I'd say 'No'.

Meaning if it says in the profile "Champ can carry up to 25 pts worth of magic items" and you give him an item already worth 10 points, you can only carry an item(s) worth 15 points or less.

Otherwise, you'd be able to make some really nasty combos because many of the chars have point restrictions were made that way so you COULDN'T do that.

And to clarify, it makes it sounds like it's 25 points towards ITEMS (plural emphasized). Meaning you could buy more than 1 item but it'd have to be total 25pts or under and (as I would read it) must still comply with the legal item point restrictions.

But I'd like to know the answer to this too.

[Asandiril]

I know it's not the latter ('multiple items within 25 points') since I've spoken to Forrest on it a few times. It is ONE free 25 point item.

The only thing not clear is: can you give the item to a character already maxed on magic - OR- does it mean the magic item does not count towards your list limit (whatever that may be with losses and cycle)?

[umbraedominus]

As to this league event, i have decided to withdraw from it due to personal reasons. i wish everyone lots of luck and hope everyone has a great time

charles

[Laplace]

I know it's not the latter ('multiple items within 25 points') since I've spoken to Forrest on it a few times. It is ONE free 25 point item.


Then that needs to be clearer IMO because the text says:

"At the end of every Cycle, if your army so far is fully painted (per the Judges) you gain 25pts to spend exclusively on Magic items." (plural)

If it was intended for one magic item it should read "...exclusively on one Magic item".

[nemerrle]

Asandiril/Jason hijaking Phill's access -
OK, I can see where the lack of clarity comes from. That is a typo by Msr. Kunz. The ORIGINAL text, at the top of this topic, is:
"At the end of the cycle, if your army is completely painted, you receive an appropriate 25 pt. or less magic item for your army."

Here's the link:
http://www.gamershavenco.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9261&postcount=1

I knew I wasn't going crazy just yet. Dale, a little editing, por favor :D

[Rorschach]

MRP...that shouldn't be a tough concept by now for you guys :-)
The singular "item" was Forest's original wording.
The change up to make a "magic items pool" came later when play actually started, when it was obvious a bunch of 25pt distinct items wasn't useful and screwed some armies over.

[Asandiril]

How does "free" Dispel Scrolls or a War Banner or Sword of Might or Enchanted Shield, or some racially specific item "screw some armies over"?!? Granted, I'm all fine with the pool effect, but "rulez iz da rulez"...

So iz it singula items or iz it a "majik" pool, eh?

[Rorschach]

How does "free" Dispel Scrolls or a War Banner or Sword of Might or Enchanted Shield, or some racially specific item "screw some armies over"?!? Granted, I'm all fine with the pool effect, but "rulez iz da rulez"

Look Jason, I was just trying to jump in and help clarify things while Forrest was out of commission. Some people complained that a singular 25pt magic item means some armies have more stuff to take than others, thus the ones with less options are disadvantaged by the rule. So it seemed to make more sense to have a pool for the bonus paint points.

You want to get all framer's intent on me...fine. Do what you feel is right.

[Warmaster]

Look Jason, I was just trying to jump in and help clarify things while Forrest was out of commission. Some people complained that a singular 25pt magic item means some armies have more stuff to take than others, thus the ones with less options are disadvantaged by the rule. So it seemed to make more sense to have a pool for the bonus paint points.

You want to get all framer's intent on me...fine. Do what you feel is right.


Oohh, ooh, geek fight. Not as cool as a cripple fight but I'll take it. In this corner we have the middle weight Dale, known for GW bashing, and band wagon jumping. And in this corner we have the feather weight Jason, known for GW Fanboyism, and defense of fluffy eldar lists.

Ding! Ding!

[Rorschach]

Maybe I should just quit facilitating GW events so I can GW bash full time.

[Warmaster]

Maybe I should just quit facilitating GW events so I can GW bash full time.


Then you can start playing Heavy Gear with me :D . Since you'll have more free time.

[Rorschach]

Heavy Gear? Isn't that the Battletech ripoff? ;)

Besides, I got plenty else to do with Hordes, Warmachine, AT-43, Confrontation (soon!), Battlelore, and possibly even Wargods. And that's not even leaving time for card and board games, nor RPGs. :-)

Actually, I think my GW path is becoming very Green. And then my answer to everything is "Bash it!". :D

[Stephan]

Anybody want a game for the Escalation league this Thursday? I might be able to make Wed, but not until 7pm at the earliest.

[konaboy]

Hi all. Several events recently (both planned and unplanned) have kept me busy and have severly limited the amount of time I can make it to the store. I think technically I am out of the escalation league since I haven't been able to get a game in the past 3 weeks. Oh well, so it goes sometimes. I may be there tomorrow to try and pick up my gaming again but I'm not sure.

Dale, I guess you can technically take me out of the league since I haven't made my games. Thanks.

David

[Asandiril]

I was merely pointing out what others have asked on Wednesday nights, seeing as usually it's only me there to answer: "Is it a single 25pt item per phase or is it a pool?" I was also refering to the rules posted on pg.1:

There has been some talk on the boards and around the store from people wanting to either get into Warhammer Fantasy or try out a new army. Well here's your opportunity.

Dale, Jason McAuliffe and I have been kicking around the idea of a summer league. ere are the leage guidelines:

<<<snip>>>
At the end of the cycle, if your army is completely painted, you receive an appropriate 25 pt. or less magic item for your army.
<<<snip>>>


If you would like to participate, there will be a sign up sheet posted at the Haven this weekend.

If you have any questions, post them here.

Forrest
I'm all for "clarifying" and leveling the playing field, but let's not get like some companies <cough-cough:GW:cough:AEG:cough> and not refer to the rules as written when making a judgement/errata.

Get your panties out the bunch they're in and quit reading into posts as personal attacks, eh? ;) :D