[p]Stupid Slackers!

[Pilgrim]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3188531&page=1


When it comes to talking about work and the latest generation of employees, 57-year-old employer Elliott Masie does not mince his words. He said today's young workers act as if they are "entitled" and are "somewhat spoiled."

Masie, a member of the baby boomer generation, heads his own company. Every day he faces the challenge of managing much younger workers; members of the millennial generation -- those born after 1981.
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Excerpt: 'Get to Work'
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"We recently had to tell a young woman employee that this was not an underwear optional workplace," he told ABCNEWS.com. "This generation needs to be deeply coached about wardrobe, and a lot of them are used to getting up at 10 or 11 a.m. Forget about them showing up to work at 8 or 9 a.m."

Masie knows more than most about the new generation of workers. He manages an international think tank that specializes in learning, technology and workplace productivity. The Masie Center in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., employs what the company calls "extremely tech-savvy" young people.

Masie has studied as well as employed so called "millennials."

"They grew up with an 'everyone gets a trophy' sense of entitlement," he said. "They are members of a generation that thinks it should get a trophy just for waking up in the morning."

Great Expectations

Such entitlement can reveal itself in strange ways.

"I had a human resources manager call me about a worker who received her performance review only to have her mother call up and complain that 'she's better than that,'" he recalled. "The HR manager was shocked and asked the mother why she was calling about her daughter. The mother responded, 'Because I've done so throughout my daughter's life.'"

"They are what their parents wanted to create," said Masie.

From Traditionalists to Millennials
Manpower, one of the nation's largest employment services companies with headquarters in Milwaukee, has studied the work habits and career goals of American workers. A company review of generational diversity points out that for the first time in history, four generations are working together. It identifies them as follows:

The traditionalists -- workers born before 1946 who respect authority, place duty before pleasure, delay gratification and avoid challenging the system.

It continues if you want to continue reading follow the link!

I really wonder if every generation thinks the Generation following them are a bunch of Lazy Slackers... I swear I can just imagine that in the early 70s you could see this exact same article about all those hippies.

Honestly a work ethic takes time to develop... and I don't think many developed it in Public School to begin with... I sure didn't.

On page 2 they had:


The Generation Xers -- workers born between 1965 and 1980 who work to live, not live to work, want versatility and are skeptical and cynical.

Man that's me to the absolute T... almost freaky!

[MasterZ]

quit being lazy and get to work!

I'm a hard working "Generation Xer"... whoever came up with that term...

[Pilgrim]

When I interviewed for my current job I told them I work for money, not for the joy of working. Pay me and I'm happy, don't and I'll find someone who will.

The managers said that attitude was refreshingly honest :)

[MasterZ]

A job has to be one that you both enjoy and make good money at.

Although if either joy or money are lacking, the other must be enough to compensate for it.

[Ze_Sexy]

All I have to say to these employers is "Get used to it!" We come from public schools where any disciplinary action that goes beyond stern words is grounds for termination and lawsuits. We were assigned teams in gym class so that no one felt left out, not that teams mattered since you get an A just for showing up and wearing gym clothes. We weren't allowed to fail a grade, again so that no feelings were hurt. Hell I took AP physics in high school and got a B, even though I never did a single homework assignment, and got C's on most of the tests. Whenever national test averages fall below the standards, all we do is just lower our standards. Schools are so afraid of angry parents that they will bend over backwards to make everyone happy.

I graduated from high school in 2000 and I am sometimes ashamed to be associated with my generation. Many people that I graduated with could barely form a proper sentence, or even read at an 8th grade level. It was fun to watch these people fail miserably in college, but even then they were given major breaks. It's no surprise to hear these complaints from employers, but like I said, get used to it. This is all you have coming for the next 20 or so years.

I think that kids need to be picked last once in a while. They need to hear the word NO and need to fail on occasion. Many of them need to be slapped around for a while too. *cough*Emo kids*cough* Me, I blame the hippies (that's what your generation does right ;))

Sorry for the rant, I needed to vent.

[MasterZ]

That's so true Ze_Sexy.

Plus we are telling parents that they can't even punish their kids or they will face lawsuits. What kind of people is the government trying to make us raise here? No wonder this country is full of people who disrespect authority and go into their schools to shoot people.

Nobody is taught discipline. Let's take morals and punishment out, and add more metal detectors, that way we don't offend anybody.... except the kids who get shot by the crazy psychos...

[mruch89]

I find it humorous that the biggest 'entitlement' generation of all time complains about how a younger generation acts entitled. The Baby Boomers are on pace to bankrupt our country due to Social Security and Medicare. But do the Baby Boomers face up to that fact and say "hey we ought to fix this, change the system or increase taxes"? Hell no, instead it's going to be up to us to pay for their 'lazy' retired asses.

Plus I tend to think that gen X and later generations are the first generations to truly abosorb the cliche work smarter not harder. And there are time that means that the younger person can get just as much work done in half the time.

Last, I agree that the work ethic as far as physical labor is dramatically different, hell it's hard to get younger people out of house to so much as play when they can be inside at the computer. But that's a mark of the changing economy as well. Our parents couldn't have put in the same hours of physical factory or farm labor as their parents etc. But they didn't have to and the same applies to my generation and the next.

[mruch89]

Nobody is taught discipline. Let's take morals and punishment out,

Whose Morals and Discipline? What punishment is acceptable? Sorry but have to play Devil's advocate here. Are you referring the Judeo-Christian ethics? Or Eastern Philosophy or Traditional Islamic law? Sorry, but I would rather have the issues of the great melting pot and evolving ethics than have one set of religious values enforced.

[Rorschach]

Plus I tend to think that gen X and later generations are the first generations to truly abosorb the cliche work smarter not harder. And there are time that means that the younger person can get just as much work done in half the time.
I used to have to work with a Boomer on a DoD contract, generating MASSIVE reports for managers of a test effort. I'd set up the requested queries, and then she'd run it by the user to get feedback on what they wanted to see. But she was convinced it was better to *manually* edit this 120-200 page spreadsheet than to simply tweak the query until we got it right. PITA!
So perhaps the Boomers and earlier work harder not smarter because they don't trust any of these newfangled contraptions....


Last, I agree that the work ethic as far as physical labor is dramatically different, hell it's hard to get younger people out of house to so much as play when they can be inside at the computer.
That's Fate's way of compensating for better health care. :D

[Rorschach]

Whose Morals and Discipline? What punishment is acceptable?


There's always British Naval Traditions...Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash...
;)

Seriously though, discipline and punishments are often successful precisely because they can be ambiguous and mysterious. And they DO need a physical element.
As a kid, we were never quite sure what the BAD punishments entailed. But the little physical punishment we'd had (token spankings) combined with the glowering paddle on the kitchen wall, served to make us DREAD whatever might be worse. And behave our damn selves.
Conversely, those who spout "Spare the rod..." like it's "An Apple a day..." are making a serious mistake. For starters, if someone's lashing their kid everyday, they're getting off on it somehow - it should be an unpleasant and onerous duty. Second, kids who get beaten frequently get real hardened to that quickly.
To haul out an old story, The Wife was schooled by a pack of wild Irish Nuns, who's idea of punishment for swearing was taking all the skin off a kid's palms with a leather strip. Not only a terrible example of Christ's mercy, but guaranteed to turn out a troublemaker and s**tkicker as well.

Kids need boundaries and punishments, but nothing that'll require dire therapy later, or rob them of their childhood.

[MasterZ]

Whose Morals and Discipline? What punishment is acceptable? Sorry but have to play Devil's advocate here. Are you referring the Judeo-Christian ethics? Or Eastern Philosophy or Traditional Islamic law? Sorry, but I would rather have the issues of the great melting pot and evolving ethics than have one set of religious values enforced.

I'm talking about the morals that we all know to be true. Do not lie, do not steal, do not cheat, do not murder. Why are we not allowed to teach these to kids anymore? Instead the thinking is that we tell kids to do whatever they want because nobody can tell them right from wrong.

If kids are raised with these morals (regardless of any belief in God) then they will, for the most part, know better than to come to school with automatic machine guns.

And if they are disciplined by their parents, then they will learn to respect authority.

[Rorschach]

I'm talking about the morals that we all know to be true. Do not lie, do not steal, do not cheat, do not murder.

That's what gets me, is why are those so hard to instill today? Heck, I learned more from STAR TREK (TOS) and KUNG FU than I did in Sunday school, and I still got those down pretty solid. And then some.
But I never did get much of that respect for Authority I think...just respect for them as earned it.

-D

[newdigitalblue]

I don't know how much of a backlash I'll get form these comments but the real problem is that people are letting media parent thier kids. I can easily name X number of parents that don't make their kids go outside. And I would say a good portion of them don't want them to go outside because their afraid they'll get hurt or kidnapped or raped or some other horror their mind create. So what do they do, distract them with video games and *shudder* Teletubbies.

But I do agree with some of the other points. Kids need to lose. They need to be taught the lesson that hey shit happens get over it. You will get picked on and not everyone is going to like you.

What's really funny is if you watch one of those "nanny" shows where parents are supposed to "learn" in a weeks time how to raise their kids all of them say don't hit your kids period that they won't learn from it. Which personally I say is BS because you whoop my ass enough times I associate the pain with doing that and guess what, I really don't want to do it anymore. But of course there are limits to all of this. It's like what I saw on the old show Titus. It was a flash back and Titus was about to stick a metal object in an electrical socket. Mom comes running say no Titus don't do that. But then the dad tells him "go ahead Titus." so Titus does and what do you know he gets shocked. Then the Dad says "Bet ya won't do that again". Maybe a little crual and dangerous but still kids need to learn lessons like that sometimes. Can't shelter them all the time.

[newdigitalblue]

That's what gets me, is why are those so hard to instill today? Heck, I learned more from STAR TREK (TOS) and KUNG FU than I did in Sunday school, and I still got those down pretty solid. And then some.
But I never did get much of that respect for Authority I think...just respect for them as earned it.

-D

Perfect example from what I said. Kids being babysat by TV.

[mruch89]

I'm talking about the morals that we all know to be true. Do not lie, do not steal, do not cheat, do not murder. Why are we not allowed to teach these to kids anymore?

You are allowed to teach them, so long as you aren't teaching them as The 10 Commandments, and so long as you aren't teaching them by brute force. Kids are smart, just uneducated, but they learn from what they see and hear every day. Which means that if the people around them act like jerks or hypocrites etc. the kids will pick it up. Language is the best example of this, if kids hear their parents cuss all the time, they will pick that up, no matter how many mouthfuls of soap get employed. And the same applies to lying, cheating, stealing etc. (with the exception of murder, hopefully kids do not get the impression from parents that murder is OK). And also applies to work ethics, if kids see their parents working at home, keeping the house clean, picking up the yard etc they will accpet that is normal. But the caveat to all this is that it is not the role of the schools to teach these things, they are life skills. Schools educate, provide knowledge, but schools do not teach my kid right from wrong, that's my job!

Sorry, got off on a rant there, I think about kids and education all the time.

[Rorschach]

Perfect example from what I said. Kids being babysat by TV.

Did I just get called a whiny, little, entitled behotch? ;)

Its not in the TV, its in what is put on it, or you're allowed to watch. And my parents tried to force me outside a LOT more - I just chose to stay in, than deal with bullies, or go smoke and drink in shacks out in the woods...

[Omar]

There needs to be discipline. We no longer need to be afraid to discipline our kids for fear of any reprisal from the government/media/society.

I learned this when I became a parent. I used to have the attitude that to spank a child was 'abuse'. I quickly got over that idea when I had my son. He is a good kid, most of the time, but when he isnt.. and wont/cant listen to reason (which is hard for a young child to do), sometimes a bit of physical pain is the best lesson he can learn.

For a long time there was an urban myth that if you were to spank your kid in wal-mart, they would call the cops. Its amazing what doing a little research on your own will accomplish... mostly that its perfectly legal do discipline your kids in a way that is suitable to you, provided there is no lasting damage. I wont belt him, like my dad did to me, but there are other ways to make them aware that they made a bad decision in their behavior.

Sometimes, I wish my parents had been harder on my. Physical discipline with me never happened past 8 or 9? There were times growing up that I really needed to get hit with something. I can say that would of solved ALOT of the problems with ALOT of the kids today. Not to beat the hell out of them, but this 'kinder, gentler' sort of discipline is crap.

I am all for working smarter rather than harder. But, I also agree that this sense of 'entitlement' among our generation is a serious problem. I just dont know what can be done to fix it.. other than to do a better job with our kids than our parents did with us.

[rodentboy]

I've got 4 kids from 4th grade to one graduating this year. the same methods don't work for every kid, one needs a spanking one does not. parenting is hard work and people need to realize that when you have kids your life of self is over. kids need there parents to be parent and set an example. I'm just like my dad and not by accident!

[newdigitalblue]

Nah I wouldn't call you a behotch.... not yet :-P


Did I just get called a whiny, little, entitled behotch? ;)

Its not in the TV, its in what is put on it, or you're allowed to watch. And my parents tried to force me outside a LOT more - I just chose to stay in, than deal with bullies, or go smoke and drink in shacks out in the woods...

[mruch89]

I agree that what works with 1 kid may not work with another. And while so far I have not had to do the spanking thing my wife & I leave that as a possible recourse. But, when I hear someone speaking about "how kids today just need a little more discipline", my first impression is someone wanting to treat their kids like robots. But again it is all about examples, what a kids sees and is exposed to influences their life choices.

[Rorschach]

It's the difference between allowing a parent to give a firm backside spank to a kid in Wal-mart to settle them down, versus standing by while a parent backhands their kid to the floor in Wal-Mart. Sometimes hard to judge between, but not rocket science either:
Paternal/Maternal Spank, on an area resistant to injury = Okay
Pimpslap delivered in anger, with real chance of actual injury = Bad

The problem is, no one in government wants to take a stand on this enough, and work hard enough, to craft good law on the subject. Either they look like they support child abuse to one side, or want to ban discipline to the other, and they lose votes either way.

-D

[Pilgrim]

See I'm not sure if I agree with anyone on this one...

I don't think that school should be teaching morality to a child... not as much per'se. I mean really the only classes in school you'll use afterwards are English, and some Math (the level of dependent on your career) and maybe science, but again that's specialized. The rest of it is pretty much worthless. So what's it all for. In my opinion it's all about Critical thinking.

I mean really, is History class important in the day to day life of the normal working person? not really... but if applied correctly, History is an excellent exercise in critical thinking. (Gamers must know History or be shunned by the other gamers... so this really doesn't apply to us)

So outside of the 3 r's and critical thinking the only thing I want a school teaching is a realistic look at the social contract... and this is where schools are failing now. It seems that instead of a realistic world view, much of the curriculum and some extreme teachers are teaching an idealistic version of society, one where everyone succeeds regardless of effort or ability. That's just not the way the world works.

I don't think that School teaches a work ethic either, that's something that comes from parents... and if it doesn't get you there, then it will be taught to you at a job through painful failings and firings... welcome to the real world.

But within those confines, outside of how morality plays into the base of the social contract, the no steal, no kill, be good, part... sure that's a part of it, but really it's more about work hard, party hard, wear glasses if you need them!

That's life baby!

[Rorschach]

For anyone who watches SOPRANOS, it feels some days like all the schools turn out are AJ's. But there are plenty of exceptions.

Personally, I think a little oppression is good for a kid. Its teaches him why its BAD for starters, and it hardens him in the way to defeat it. There comes an age where a kid needs to learn there are times when they're ON THEIR OWN. Letting that lesson go too late is a real disservice to the kid. Too early, and you rob them of childhood and a sense of security.

Separating boys and girls in school is also a good idea thats worked through the centuries (particularly in pagan cultures, believe it or not). Biology dictates that at least past elementary school, boys and girls need different education styles. And they could benefit from lack of distraction. But maybe even I'm outmoded - try saying that stuff, and next thing you know you can't be Dean of Harvard anymore... :-)

So I say, give em obstacles, challenges, and boundaries, but don't crush their spirits. The "pollyana hold hands singe Kumbaya" school, and the Spartan "throw them to the wolves literally" school are equally bad.

-D

[mruch89]

I don't think that school should be teaching morality to a child... not as much per'se.

We are in agreement here Jim, morality can and must come from the parents. And I don't know where or how people get into thinking that some kind of cut throat best kids get picked atmosphere is actually good. Admittedly I was only in that atmosphere for 4 of my 13 years of pre-college so I didn't get a lot of that from the school. But even in a Hippy, free spirit, every kid's a winner school, kids still develop all the nasty clique's and bullying etc. it just takes different forms.

That of course comes from the gym classes and break times than it does from regular classes. THe one thing I do whole heartedly oppose is the every kid passes culture. I have a nephew who is developing in a perfect storm for all of the ills of society: single mom with no work ethic, no father figure, little to no dsicipline at home, keeps getting passed to the next grade in school. Next year he moves onto Middle school, when a responsible parent and education system would say: "whoa, no way this kid is ready". And yes his mom is as much to blame as the system, but at some point from an educational perspective the school should simply stop the kid and say: "he's not ready for the next step."

[Pilgrim]

When I was in 8th grade I managed to get, for the entire year, a 15% out of 100

That's the accumulative for all my classes including throw away classes like PE.

That's right 15% I was so far below Failing that I couldn't even see the Fail mark.

The school tried to pass me on to ninth grade because it would be bad for my Esteem to be left behind while all my friends went to high school.

My dad intervened and had to threaten legal action to get them to hold me back and make me take 8th grade again. It was a good and extremely necessary reality check for me.

The school said there was no consequence for my entire year of inaction, my dad said there would be one.

To this day I'm glad my dad fought that fight.

[mruch89]

Good for your father (I wish that my sister in-law had that kind of forethought, sigh...). But as the current thread subject was aimed at the role of the school's, don't you think that the school had some responsibility to say 'no way this slacking juvenile delinquent gets to move up, he needs to stay in 8th grade another year'?

[Pilgrim]

Absolutely. the school should have been fighting to keep me back till I successfully completed the requirements of 8th grade, instead of worrying more about my poor little esteem.

Simple truth is I had enough insight to realize that all my friends moving on and me staying behind was a situation of my own making. Honestly at this point I can't really say why it happened. I think it was my own way of pushing the boundaries. I knew exactly how high I could go succeeding, and I didn't find the rewards that great for doing so, instead I decided to find how Failing worked out... didn't work out that good.

It was also at this time that my Father figured out that I'm 100% reward based. I don't do anything except for the sake of personal gratification... work, play, doesn't matter. I don't climb the mountain because it's there, I climb it because I'll feel good about having done it. And a deferment of punishment is never reward enough...

It's been interesting for my Long suffering wife who does most of what she does for the joy of doing it... similar but very different. We've worked it out :)

So here's the real crux... you have an absolute failure of a student, and not for any good reason, just because for a year he didn't feel like doing it... and the school wants to pass him on.

If the district hadn't relented... what were my fathers options? If he could shop my education around with the money he spends for it, then he would have had actual leverage, but because the District got money for me regardless, they had no motivation other then shuffle me in shuffle me out, and ignore the little quirks my... unique... brain required for being educated.

One of many reasons I'm a fan of Vouchers.

[queenhelgar]

I just read through a good portion of these responses to our youth today and thought I'd throw my two cents in. First of all, I think about what is happening to our kids today. I think that we, as a society, are really screwing up our kids. I think it is from the media (all forms) as well as parenting. I was born in 1966 so that, in effect, puts me in the generation we are talking about.

I don't know about you guys but I had the live to work mentality for a long time. That is one of the things that I pride myself in - is being able to work hard. I grew up in a pretty good family. My dad was very strict and I got my work ethic from him. Earlier in my parenting years, I felt that my parents did it wrong so I set out to change the way I parent. Years later I can look back and sort of cringe at some of my polyanish ways.

I have a daughter that everything in life naturally came easy to her and this year she was hit between the eyes (so to speak) with reality and she folded for a good portion of the year. I really believe that it is because she had never failed at anything. I knew she would have it hard when it hit but never knew it would hit her that hard. They say that as you get older the lessons are much more costly and I have to agree. She is only 17 and the cost here was not money. She is pulling out of it but had she had setbacks all along the way she would probably have dealt with things better. My son has had setbacks all of his life and has had to work hard for anything he gets so he knows how to work hard and does - if it serves him. But both kids have the same mentality of We owe them something. I constantly fight against that because of what society and their dad is teaching them. When I talk to anyone with older kids they all say the same thing - that the kids today feel we all owe them something.

I believe in spanking (when it is warranted) and I believe in natural consequences like if you don't work you should not get paid; if you borrow money (even from your parents) you should pay it back; if you fail a class you should be forced to make it up, etc. The schools today are so hide bound by society and sue happy people that they aren't even allowed to touch kids. They are afraid of law suits if their kids don't get high enough test scores, etc. That is society protecting kids instead of forcing them to work for themselves and that it is an adult problem, not a kid problem. We take on all of their problems and try to handle them ourselves to protect them.

Parents are also living through their children. The mentality of everyone gets a trophy is stupid in my opinion. However, parents are starting their children in sports when they are 3 and 4 years old and pushing them all the way through so by the time these kids get into upper elementary and middle school they are super players and no one else has a chance to get on the team. In school, they have cut teams as early as 4th grade and I think that is wrong. That is the time to teach these kids. I can see it in middle school and high school. I see parents that are living through their children instead of supporting and encouraging them.

I'm looking forward to my son starting high school football. He is quickly going to get a lesson in how to work hard when he starts lifting weights at 6:00 am everyday of the summer. And when he takes that first hit - I have a feeling he won't know what hit him! But I want him to go through the school of hard knocks. It builds character. All of us have gone through rough times but it is those rough times that makes us who we are. We are doing a huge disservice to these kids by not allowing them these opportunities.

As a single person I thought I knew it all in parenting, then I had kids. I thought I could change things and do better than other parents did. Now that I have older kids I just look back and shake my head and realize that we are all trying our best but we need to look at the results of our actions and change some things as a society again.

[Pilgrim]

Good post Nancy!

And you reminded me of something I thought of the other day.... that of the media, Cartoons and movies to be specific.

I'm trying to think of a children's film, involving young protagonists in which the adults/parents are not complete dunces. It's the entire Child empowerment thing... and frankly I think it's dangerous... children are inexperienced, and can glean much from the Adults around them, but movies and cartoons are telling them that everyone older then you is too stupid to give you anything but hassle.

It's lame.

[queenhelgar]

I agree. We are treading on thin ice here. We have gone from empowering our children to letting them take control and the workforce is going to take the brunt of it. If our children are like this now who knows what their children will be like!

[Rorschach]

Very nice post, Nancy! I've been trying to think about what schools can do, and I keep wondering why the formula when I was young doesn't work anymore: If we misbehaved, the teachers still couldn't or wouldn't spank us, but we could be taken to the office, or even our parents called to get us. And it was solely the parents, thus informed, who would dish out corporal punishment (sometimes right there in the office!).
Now today, they can't do so in public per se, but what's to stop real consequences at home? Are the Parents just not getting informed? Are the Teachers, having been bitten by rabid parents too many times, just not trying? OR are they trying, and the bulk of parents not doing a damn thing because "its hard"?


I'm trying to think of a children's film, involving young protagonists in which the adults/parents are not complete dunces. It's the entire Child empowerment thing... and frankly I think it's dangerous... children are inexperienced, and can glean much from the Adults around them, but movies and cartoons are telling them that everyone older then you is too stupid to give you anything but hassle.


I thought surely you'd be above the "Blame it on the Media" chant, Jim. I'm disappointed.
Since the earliest days of Disney, parents have been the ones that don't have a clue what's going on with their kids. They don't believe in the dragon, or the wizard of oz, or Mary Poppins, etc.
And in almost every single Disney film, the kids are on their own in some way - Orphans, Single parents, Divorced parents, Alien parents from Witch Mountain, etc.
So while the adults are clueless, it was more about empowering the kids than fostering disrespect for elders. Thats why we loved those movies so much as kids.

I don't know about all the movies today aimed at early teens and down, but I don't see any great rebellion. Just the same formula that goes back decades. And stuff like IRON GIANT and SPY KIDS and all the Pixar titles continue to be brilliant.
I can't wait to see Seinfeld's new BEE MOVIE for instance...

And to another film for wisdom:
Who do you blame when your kid is a brat,
Pampered and spoiled like a Siamese cat.
Blaming the kids is a lie and a shame.
You know exactly who's to blame:
The mother and the father.

-Dale

[Ze_Sexy]

I recall the antics during the Pokemon days. I was working at a game store at the time, and I saw parents spending ridiculous amounts of money for things that their kids had only a passing interest in. Pawn shops were getting $20 per pack close to Christmas. Don't even get me started on the Japanese cards (that was mostly Justin's fault there). Parents didn't even bat an eye when their kids demanded (literally demanded) to have these cards because their friends all had them. The worst were the kids with divorced parents. One kid in particular got everything he wanted just by saying "My dad would buy it for me," and his mom would instantly pull out the credit card.

I'm reminded of the scene in Talladega Nights when the parents are getting divorced and the kids scream "Yay, two Christmases!"

[queenhelgar]

Dale,


I know that in District 11 they have an on-line parent program that gives all the information about their student. it gives attendance, grades, GPA, Discipline, etc. It is updated through out the day so parents can go on any time and see where and what their student is doing. I know that Falcon 49 as well as my school (CSDB) has the same program. It is great. This puts the responsibility back on the student and the parent. That is if parents use it. My kids really don't care for it but have gotten used to me confronting them about their grades and attendance. If I didn't have this tool, I think my son would be lost.

I also think it is a combination of the schools being bitten too often as well as the parents thinking "this is too hard". We also have given kids too many easy ways out. If the going gets tough, this generation of kids get going where it is easier and "nicer".

I think Charter Schools have a lot more control of what goes on at their school since it is a choice for familys to go. I know that the Charter School my son goes to is a lot better than public schools. They insist on 32 hours of community service per year or they don't graduate. They also only have A,B,C, and F. Anything less than a C and you are put on academic probation. This school also requires parents to volunteer at the school 10 hours a year for your student to attend. They have monthly parenting seminars with the staff. They teach values and respect. They teach moral values without any religion or mention of God either. This is all done in partnership with the family.

[mruch89]

And to another film for wisdom:
Who do you blame when your kid is a brat,
Pampered and spoiled like a Siamese cat.
Blaming the kids is a lie and a shame.
You know exactly who's to blame:
The mother and the father.


brilliant addition to the conversation Dale. It brings up a conversation I had with my Dad when I first started dating my wife, who comes from a considerable less advataged background than mine.
ME: Dad, she say's I'm spoiled,
DAD: Of course you're spoiled, all parents want to spoil their kids.

This coming from the man who once slugged me full force in the stomach for laughing when he got hurt. And whose personal ideal of living would be to live in a tent, use public transportation everywhere, and eat in soup kitchens.

Every generation of parents wants their kids to live better than they did. You can't blame them for that. The key is to temper that and balance it with making certain the child knows where these shiny toys and nice food etc. come from.

[YourHero]

Does no one else find it at all funny that we are posting about a lack of work ethic, during work? From the fact that we can complain about work ethic while at work, it just goes to show you that there is little work ethic to begin with. This is just the new "water cooler"/"breakroom", this is where like people congregate to skate out of work.

I guess I am inbetween GenX and Millenials (in age born in 80), so I see both sides as valid and relate to both.

Real life story when I was younger I played every sport, I was lousy by the way, but that is what everyone did (trust me if I had a nintendo back then I would now be a pro-gamer). In 8th grade I got a basketball trophy for scoring NO baskets. Was it my fault I got the trophy? No. Was it my fault I sucked at basketball and still played (mostly rode bench) every year? Maybe.

Funny thing is I never got picked on for sucking at sports casue at least I was there, it was the being fat and wearing coke-bottle glasses that did me in.

Everyone is different especially when comparing old people to young people, my parents dont understand video games in the same sense that I dont understand John Wayne. Really, this has little if nothing to do with the "kids", it is parents trying to justify thier failings in raising thier kids.

[Pilgrim]

Ah the Irony. I decided to wait till I got back to work to respond :)

Most everyone finds some little diversions at work. I think work is more the balance between the diversions, and the actual task at hand. The water cooler analogy is very apt in this instance.

But at the end of the day my In box is cleared, all the tasks handed to me are done, and if they aren't then I'm staying till they are. That's where the work ethic difference comes in. It's not about how we waste our time, it's about how we do our work... and the concern is that a generation raised to believe that as long as an effort is put forth that's all that matters, when in the real world it's more about not just the effort but the results.

[mruch89]

I'll go with that answer Jim. for me browsing on the internet and posting on boards does not decrease my productivity in fact it increases it because it keeps my mind busy and awake.

[Rorschach]

I'll go with that answer Jim. for me browsing on the internet and posting on boards does not decrease my productivity in fact it increases it because it keeps my mind busy and awake.

Amen. I'm stuck on these massive Integrated Test calls lately, or waiting for Pri 2 tickets to be resolved so my testing can go forward. So lots of feast and famine. Nothing to do in famine but listen for your name on the call, or wait for the "ticket fixed" email. If it wasn't posting here, it's Youtube, or news pages, etc. Keeps me awake, keeps my mind active.

-D

[Rorschach]

Nice news on D11 and local Charter Schools, Nancy. I've liked GLOBE (if they're still around) since we had David there. With those programs in place, at least good parents can get their kids to good places, or work with the system if they want to.
What's scary still is how much worse the drug problem is these days. Its as prevalent as mere smoking was when I was a kid.
I don't think anyone will be able to fight Drugs successfully until the CIA finds a better funding method, and the Govt tries a strategy that works. Like legalizing and regulating to break the economic back of the industry. Or take all that Iraq money, and destroy the real terrorists in our hemisphere. And heck, that almost solves the immigration problems too - Mexico is going down the tubes so fast because not even the Govt can fight the druglords. But I digress...

One last point on kids, and the American Future. Society has to break this standard mode that says Smarts=Bad, and Sports are glorified above all. Sports are crucial for teaching certain virtues, but they shouldn't eclipse academics simply because its the easiest way to make kids feel successful. If we don't start churning out better and brighter students, we'll lose our last remaining dominant industry, that of tech and computer innovation.

-D

[mruch89]

One last point on kids, and the American Future. Society has to break this standard mode that says Smarts=Bad, and Sports are glorified above all.

Spoken like a true geek Dale ;)

I do agree that what our culture seems to value is out of whack, but it's not just sports, it's American Idol, Survivor, Paris Hilton, Britney Spears etc. Hell, Sports is the best reality TV out there IMHO. But I don't think it's only Smarts = Bad, I also think it's Talent <> Fame in many cases.

[Pilgrim]

as mere smoking was when I was a kid.
I don't think anyone will be able to fight Drugs successfully until the CIA finds a better funding method,

-D

I thought surely you'd be above the "Blame it on the CIA" chant, Dale. I'm disappointed. :p

[ColGreeley]

The wohole world has become the ultimate Reality show. In a society, where it seems to be more important to know what Brad and Angelina are doing or if Britney flashed someone than actual events in the world, that is a problem. But that is what the media seesm to be focused on. Like Mike said, the priorities seem out of whack.

And as someone who played sports in school, we had to make sure our grades kept up, if not, you were gone. Period.

[rodentboy]

we all have to remember that it takes team work between the parents, kids and teachers. if anyone of them fails or quits caring the whole thing fails. we found out that my daughter was almost 4 grades behind last year. the school just kept passing her and saying nothing! we transfered her to another school, worked out a program with her teacher and in a years time she has almost totally caught up! if the school, i or my daughter hadn't done our part this would not have happened. go team!

[Pilgrim]

I feel in some ways the Competition of sports helps prepare a child for the real world even better then most academics. The strive to compete is much easier to ignite in a kid playing Basketball with a short term obtainable goal, then it is in a Math wiz, who's only competition is the book, who's never failed at anything...


Of course anytime I really think about this kind of stuff I look at my Wife as a good example. She was born in 79, a competitive swimmer in High school (Got a scholarship to College on Swimming before she blew out her shoulder) Finished her Undergraduate Degree in 3 years at John Brown University, was excepted into a very Competitive PHD program at CSU. Defended her Thesis in 2 semesters, and had her dissertation done before the end of her second year. Got the #1 rated Internship in the State and Denver Health Medical Center, finished there, went to work for PPMH and the second they could they moved her into Middle management. She works now from 8am to 6pm every day, and when we're watching TV at night, she's normally finishing up her work. On average she works 12-14 hours a day, and normally 2-4 hours each weekend.

She loves what she does (Something I've always envied honestly) and works extremely hard to make sure her teams are successful.

She was an athlete, a student, and an academic.. all at the same time. I've always said I pray my children get her ability to apply themselves, and study, as well as her drive to compete... If they get my ability to be tough and stubborn... well they're in trouble!

[Rorschach]

I thought surely you'd be above the "Blame it on the CIA" chant, Dale. I'm disappointed. :p
I actually got that from Michael Savage. He said to rent THE GOOD SHEPHERD and see who really runs the world. And for once, he's right. ;)

Actually I'm just a little too much stream-of-consciousness this morning. Too little sleep post HEROES and DEXTER finales last night. :-)

[Pilgrim]

Actually I was directly quoting you about me going to the Blame the media... which you were right about... just more in a wondering kinda way.

So Good Shepard is good? I'll have to rent that one.

I was celebrating my Anniversary yesterday (BTW Happy Anniversary Stephan!) so I haven't seen Heroes yet... I'm avoiding that thread like the plague!

[Rorschach]

Happy Anniversary to you both!

SHEPHERD is fascinating...not enough action perhaps, but that's what makes it chilling.

[Pilgrim]

I'm in the mood for a non-action thinking film... I'll ahve to check that one out!

[queenhelgar]

Heck, I think sports = $$$$$$$$ It is rediculous that a football player gets more than a doctor. Why wouldn't a kid want to play football or other sport when they get older. (I'm sure this won't be a poplular comment and I don't mean to offend)
:0)

[Pilgrim]

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that it's stupid that a football player gets paid more then a doctor.

Heck I think "Teacher" should be the on of the highest and one of the most sought after professions in the country, both because of the fiscal compensation and the prestige and honor of that position... but it isn't.

Yeah Sports = $$$$$ but the percentages of people who dedicate the time required to get to that money versus the number who do so to the detriment of the other things they need to learn... well it's not even close. Honestly an MBA=$$$$ more often the the NBA=$$$$ more kids need to be taught that.

We had a guy who led our basketball team to the State Championship twice in High School. He was Awesome! He also Couldn't read. It was shocking at best. Never went to college, never got anywhere, probably is playing Pick up games with friends and being amazing between his ditch digging/bugger flipping job.

That's an example of Parents, schools, and everyone failing a kid because he was good at sports.

[ColGreeley]

No sports athelete is worth these $120 million contracts we see. None. Period.

[Pilgrim]

No sports athelete is worth these $120 million contracts we see. None. Period.

Philosophically... no they aren't.

However, if said Athlete getting 120m brings in more fans, makes the team better, sells more tickets, more TV time, More Merchandise, and that total of money that one star brings in is more then the 120 mil... then yeah from a fiscal standpoint they are worth it.

Remember in the Pro's Athletes are nothing but commodities by which the organization makes money. It's a private enterprise, not Government... so they are welcome to spend their money as foolishly as they wish.

College is the same way. They spend more on their sports programs then some of their academic programs because the sports programs bring in money for the Academic programs. So some braindead idiot gets a full ride while a truly worthy academic has to work 2 jobs to go to the same college... I have no problem with the Pro's... do what you do, but I really wish there was some way to change the way it works in college... make it so that for every dollar spent on a sports program scholarship, equal scholarships must be offered for academics... at least at state funded schools.

[mruch89]

No sports athelete is worth these $120 million contracts we see. None. Period.

No athlete ever gets paid for the entire contract. And where is the uproar when an actor/actress/singer gets paid 20 million$ for a movie, or 1 million$ per episode for a TV show? Or who knows how much for an album?

But we digress from the bigger point which is that the "jockocracy" and the "American Idol" syndrome are examples of how the skewed perspective of our culture can warp the work ethic of kids. Never mind that the few people who actually become professional entertainers (and I am including pro athletes here) have insane work ethics, far beyond what even the exceptional high school student has, the kids somehow think that it will fall into their laps.

[ColGreeley]

Oh I agree Mike. No actor should get that kind of money either.

And it is easy for a high school kid to become a celebrity when the NBA can draft them straight from high school. I stand by the belief that they should have college first before they can be drafted.

[Pilgrim]

Exactly Mike!

Children need to learn that Hard work will bring them to were they want to be... if that's a pro Athlete, then Start working hard... but for goodness sake have a backup plan! Same with being an entertainer.

It's ok to dream big, but always dream with an escape hatch.

not being a parent yet, I've always wondered how I'll balance my own pragmatic, and often times pessimistic outlook on life, with my desire to encourage the hypothetical children to shoot for the moon...

[mruch89]

technically they have to attend 1 year of college now, but even those kids, while gifted with amazing natual ability, still have worked their asses off with little to no time off probably since grade school. Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Greg Oden, they all worked very very hard to reach the point where they could get drafted, now in some cases they stop working once they get drafted, but that's their problem.

[Pilgrim]

Similar... but unrelated... yet Related.

Didn't want to start a new Thread for this one!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3205955&page=1


So let's say you have a 10-, 11- or 12-year-old boy and you took away his video games, his iPod and, yes, even the television. Would he know what to do? Would you know what to do with him?

If these questions make you cringe, fear not. Help has arrived in the form of "The Dangerous Book for Boys" -- a sort of "how to" guide to life and play for young boys that is enjoying sudden and sensational success.


"Dangerous" came out at the beginning of May with a modest printing of 91,000 copies. Just three weeks later, according to publisher Harper Collins, the book is in its fifth run. Now 405,000 copies are in print, many of them prominently displayed in the nation's bookstores. "This is really, truly remarkable," Harper Collins editor Matthew Benjamin told ABC News. "We just don't see those kinds of numbers."

The book is a menu of activities and articles designed to feed a boy's imagination and fuel his desire to play, explore and take risks. It includes sections on bugs, battles and baseball. There are instructions for building a tree house, a bow and arrow ("You will need flint or bone for arrowheads") and the "greatest paper airplane in the world."

If none of this seems "dangerous," the book also includes a chapter on "Hunting and Cooking a Rabbit" (along with a section on how to skin it), another on "How to Play Poker" and advice on what many boys perceive as the most risky activity of all -- talking to girls.

Still if the title seems too overblown for what is essentially a Boy Scout manual on steroids, Conn Iggulden, one of the book's authors, explained that it's meant to harken "back to a time when the word 'dangerous' wasn't a dirty one."

Iggulden added, "Ask any man about a treasured memory from childhood and they'll tell you something that involves overcoming danger. The small risks we took so blithely taught us valuable lessons."

Iggulden, who wrote the book with his brother Hal, was motivated by the fact that as the father of a young boy, he was "suddenly much more aware that things I considered important aren't being taught in schools anymore. I was also fed up with the way health and safety seems to be spoiling a lot of the activities we took for granted." Citing everything from "riding bikes to playgrounds in parks," Iggulden continued, "If something hasn't been banned completely, it's now forbidden unless the child wears the sort of safety equipment associated with professional hockey players."

Clearly Iggulden's frustrations and resulting book resonate: "Dangerous" has been the No. 3 top seller on Amazon.com and is No. 2 among bestselling advice books according to The New York Times list.

Benjamin has a ready explanation, garnered from reaction to the book: "Parents see kids spending so much time playing video games and they are frustrated. It's the right message that boys need to go outside, be active, have adventure."


But targeting boys for this message irritates some child development experts. "I think girls need it as well," said Robert Halpern, author of "Making Play Work" and a professor at the Erikson Institute for Child Development. "Danger and risk are ways of exploring your limits and who you might be and finding yourself. Girls need them just as much as boys."

Halpern has an even bigger problem with the book than its limited appeal to males. He argues that a manual of this sort is "absurd" and a "sad comment on today's parents. Why should you need a book to affirm that your kid needs to be running around having fun and taking risks?"

Maybe parents have just forgotten how themselves or maybe they just need some guidance. For instance, how many parents couldn't use a little help explaining to their sons how to talk to girls. Well, page 110 comes in handy with a list of pointers, including, "Avoid being vulgar. Excitable bouts of windbreaking will not endear you to a girl. Just to pick one example."

If you detect an unfamiliar primness in the language, that's because the book's authors are British and the book was originally published in England. Thirty percent of "The Dangerous Book for Boys" was revised for the American edition. "We took out the monarchy and put in stickball," said Benjamin, the Harper Collins editor. Cricket is also gone, a section on Major League Baseball All-Stars in its place. But rugby made the cut, a British sport, but perhaps "dangerous" enough. The English version had nary a word on the Revolutionary War. The American edition features accounts of famous battles from that conflict and the Civil War.

And the uniquely American childhood game of cowboys and Indians, now faded into nostalgia, might get reinvigorated by the U.S. version. It includes a Navajo code talker's dictionary.

In fact, nostalgia may be a big part of the book's success. Its pages are sepia-toned and it has a red cloth cover with big gold lettering like an old book of legends.

Conjuring up childhood memories works for David Lannom, 42. He's a bookseller at a Border's Books in Chicago where "The Dangerous Book for Boys" was on display. He was going to buy a copy and said, "I know I'm not a kid anymore but I feel like it when I look at this book."

But for Drew Hutcheson, 19, a Barnes and Noble customer who we caught pondering a purchase of the book for his 11-year-old stepbrother, it was strictly a modern day motivation: "I would rather he have a book in his hand than an Xbox."

For anyone worried that risk or adventure comes along anyway to young boys, Iggulden answers that neither should not be put off by an overstructured or oversupervised boyhood. "If we prevent our sons from experiencing anything more dangerous than a well-supervised bouncy castle, they don't become sissies. Instead, they seek out even greater risks on their own, and this time, we're not close enough to stop it going too far."

[newdigitalblue]

Wasn't that book posted in a differant thread? I know I saw that artical somewhere...

[mruch89]

I am torn, I think this book needed to be written, but I am sad it needed to be written. Sometimes I worry about the fact that my 5 year old is better at playstation games than I am, but then the fact that his favorite toy is a sword, and the fact that he plays every sport I can sign him up for balances that out.

[Pilgrim]

I am torn, I think this book needed to be written, but I am sad it needed to be written. Sometimes I worry about the fact that my 5 year old is better at playstation games than I am, but then the fact that his favorite toy is a sword, and the fact that he plays every sport I can sign him up for balances that out.

I couldn't agree more! Although I don't think that Video games are bad for a child, Especially for a boy child trying to get his competition on... I still think the best memories are the Dragons young boys slay in their minds, not on their TV's.

That and the Right of Manhood. When I Have Children, If I have a boy (The math isn't good on that one) I'll start establishing very early one task he's not allowed to do... something fun, but challenging... and then when he hits 13-14 I'll take him aside, and with much pomp and circumstance we'll go forth and slay that dragon... it's a right of manhood, a passing of the torch that is a clear demarcation for him between being a boy, and being a man.

Most cultures have had something like this, our culture has kind of lost it...