what do you guys think.

[JayandVarn]

Im starting with a space marine army first but im thinking as soon as i understand the rules more and i have ALOT (:) ) more games under my belt I would like to move to another army.

Im thinking of 3 army in my head just because I like the way they look and how their stragtiy (sorry, cant speel worth a darn) is, will from what I take form the cover anyway, but anyway im thinking of these 3 armies. If you guys could give me a little blips ( what they are good at, what they ar'nt, numbers, point wise, etc..) about them that would be wonderful and much appreicated.

Here they are: im thinking of the Tau, the Tyranids, and the Necrons.

thanks for you help,
Jeremy

[The Blue Buddha]

Space marines are definately a good, versatile, and forgiving army to start with. Someone steered you in the right direction.

I've played Tyranids before (and hopefully will again as soon as my chaos army is completed) so I can speak for experience in that regard. I've played tons of Tau and Necrons so I have a pretty good feel for them as well, but I'm sure someone else on this board can do it better.

Tyranids: a brief synopsis

Tyranids are THE horde army. Their strength is in numbers. Man for man they usually aren't the equal of the troops other races can field, but who cares when you outnumber them 2 or even 3 to 1? With their new codex their shooting has improved and the list has become very versatile. You can field the classic horde of nasty little bugs or play what is called the "Godzilla" list and take a bunch of monstrous creatures that tear their way through opposition. It's all about style....and if you want to be a huge raging cheeseball. A Tyranid army can be hugely intimidating to face, and with good reason.
They do have their downsides however. Most of your guys won't even get an armor save against the vast majority of weapons out there. Multiple shot weapons and flamers = dead bugs. Your big nasties have to psychically control the little bugs so you have to take a balance of leader types and mindless cutty/stabby types. If the synapse control is broken it's pretty much over for the Tyranid player. On the upside, as long as you are in synapse range your guys are fearless. It's a versatile and unique list and it makes for fun games. It has a pretty steep learning curve however. Tyranids are difficult to master but can be very, very, effective if used properly.
The other downside is cost. Many Tyranid armies can field upwards of a hundred models. That adds up pretty quickly. It also takes a HOT minute to paint all those bugs. Nobody likes an unpainted army, but a finished, well painted Tyranid army is definately something to admire.



Gat.

[Ze_Sexy]

I played Necrons a while ago, and I can tell you that they are probably the most resilient army in the game. The basic warrior is as hard to kill as a space marine, except he has a 50/50 chance of standing up on the next turn. They get tougher from there. They are usually a shooting force (lots of assault and heavy weapons with good range) but they can take a few hand-to-hand units as well. The only down side is the phase out rule, where your entire army disappears after you take 75% casualties. I've lost to a single chaos space marine before, that really sucked. They are also a pretty forgiving army, although quite different from space marines.

[JayandVarn]

I enjoy the way the Tryanids look and i like the concept of attacking in hordes. that is one of my many styles that i like. another is attacking with heavy weapons from a distance. i have a few other ideas but im still trying to figure out what i want to do with my space marine army.

eck, that pase out run really sucks. would it be just a good idea just to buy the codex's for the armies that im interested in also and just look at them to get a idea about who they are and what their potental is? or should i just wait until i become more fimilar with the game.

the only thing that im nevious about is my fighting style. ...i still dont know it. i have a few ideas on how to build up my forces but those are just ideas.

but anyway, im just rambling now trying to kill time cause im bored at work. thank you very much for your thoughts. anything is helpful for me.

thanks again,
jeremy

[Blackraine]

Alrighty, not-so-brief rundown on the three armies:

1. Tyranids –

Tyranids have basically 4 ways that you can play them: Close combat, Godzilla-nid style, Shooty, or Swarm. Close combat generally relies on lots of Genestealers (including the Broodlord) as your troops, with a close combat Carnifex or two, a Hive Tyrant (often w/ wings), and a few warriors or Raveners. It focuses on getting key units tied up with the infiltrating Broodlord’s unit, while the rest of the army advances. With an appropriate amount of cover, by the time you can shoot at the majority of the army, it’s usually too late and the remainder will swamp your army and shred it to bits.

Godzilla-nids rely on multi-wound creatures. Usually 4-5 Carnifexes (2-3 Heavies and 2 Elites), a Hive Tyrant or two with Tyrant Guard, and some Warriors, plus 2 squads of Genestealers or Hormogaunts for your mandatory troop choices. It can be done either very shooty (with tons of Venom Cannons and Barbed Stranglers) or very heavy close combat. These lists tend to be frowned upon because they can be very difficult for a balanced army to deal with. It’s not easy to kill something with 5 wounds, regen, and a 2+ armor save, let alone 3 of them.

Shooty armies generally bring a lot of Gaunts, Raveners, and Warriors, and pump out as much anti-infantry shooting as they can. They also generally have a Carnifex or two for anti-vehicle support. These lists are some of the most effective, but also some of the least fluffy (since, y’know, Tyranids are supposed to be all about the close combat). Of all the Tyranid lists I’ve played against, I dislike this one the most because it goes so much against the flavor of the army.

Swarm armies are a Tyranid specialty, but also one of the least played (from my experience) army types. They rely on bucketloads of gaunts, hormogaunts, and ripper swarms, and tend to run 2-3 times the models that the opponent is running. They’re expensive to play, money-wise, but probably the most fluffy of all the Tyranid armies. Depending on the army, they can be extremely effective, or extremely not. Space Marines tend to do well against these armies, but many other armies (like Eldar, for instance) tend to not fare so well due to the shorter range of their weapons.

2. Necrons –

Necrons are fairly unique in that they’re very easy to play against inexperienced players, but can be very difficult to play against those of us who have been around for a while. This is due primarily to their “Phase Out” rule, and the way their “We’ll Be Back” saves work. An experienced player will isolate and destroy units, focusing on one unit type at a time in an effort to destroy all models of that type within 8”. If successful, none of the killed models will be able to make a “We’ll Be Back” save unless there is another unit on the table somewhere and a Tomb Spyder nearby (also a primary target). This means that your primary offensive units, Destroyers, are going to be the first target of a good player.

Phase out occurs when you have equal to or less than 25% of your total *NECRON* models remaining. So, for instance, if you had 3 squads of 10 Necron warriors, 15 Destroyers, 10 Immortals, a Necron Lord, and 10 Pariahs, I only have to kill a total of 42 out of 66 models to win (the Pariahs don’t count, as they’re not “Necron” models). The Destroyers will likely be the first to go, as they’re the greatest offensive threat and there are only 15 of them. Then, the Immortals will be the next target, as there’s only one squad of them (they’re not Warriors, even though they look like warriors). This puts me at 25 models toward my goal, without giving you a single “We’ll Be Back” roll because I’m targeting specific model types instead of just targeting random squads. It also means that I have 3 or 4 turns to kill 17 Warrior models, which you’ll almost definitely be getting “We’ll Be Back” saves for. I can, if I wish, completely ignore the Pariahs or any Monoliths that you might have, since neither of those count toward Phase Out. Once I kill those 17 models, and they stay dead after We’ll Be Back rolls, your entire army leaves the battlefield (counting as destroyed) and I win.

So, the key to becoming a good Necron player is to have a good balance between offensive toys (Destroyers, Immortals, etc) and cheap, ressurectable meat (Warriors). That’s generally easier said than done, so it may take a lot of losses to get that combination down.

3. Tau –

Finally an army that I actually play AS rather than only playing against! The way I see it, there are 4 types of Tau armies: Mobile Stand-alone, Mobile Combined, Suit heavy, and Static. Mobile Stand-alone armies are armies that rely heavily on mobile units (Hammerheads, Piranhas, Fire warriors transported by Devilfish, and Crisis battlesuits). The idea is to not have a single model in your army that doesn’t move 12” a turn (thus the transports for the Fire Warriors). This army type generally focuses on outright firepower, foregoing the trickier units like Pathfinders and Stealth Suits in favor of a more Direct approach. Due to the vehicle and heavy infantry requirements, these armies can be fairly expensive on the wallet, but are never-the-less a lot of fun to play.

Mobile Combined uses the combined arms approach that the Tau are built around. You’ll see Pathfinders, a lot of units (usually Stealth Suits) with Markerlights, and the Ubiquitous Hammerheads and Fire Warriors in Devilfish. You’ll also see generally between 4 and 10 seeker missiles attached to various vehicles in a list like this, with the goal being to strike hidden enemy assets (such as indirect ordinance) on the first turn, and cause as much destruction in that first turn of shooting as possible. Pathfinders and Stealth Suits w/ Markerlights are what military guys like myself refer to as a “force multiplier” in that they allow other units to strike more accurately, and strike multiple targets at once. They also allow me to ignore things like Line of Sight and Night Fighting to a degree, which can be a big advantage on a terrain heavy table. This tends to be a little less offensively potent overall than the Mobile Stand-alone lists, but more effective overall if you’ve got a lot of practice with it.

Suit Heavy lists are lists that generally include the O’Shova special character (though I’ve come up with a few good ones that use Commander Shadowsun instead). They stress lots and lots of Crisis Battlesuits and Broadsides, and use primarily Fire Warrirors on foot to save on points so that they can include more suits. Because Crisis suits are so adaptable, these tend to be some of the best “all comers” lists. They can be easily adapted against any threat simply by changing out weapon options, or they can take a wide variety of weapons to be somewhat good against basically everything. Also, because of the number of multi-wound models with decent armor saves, they tend to be extremely resilient against anti-troop armies. These armies can be rather expensive to procure, however, as you’re looking at 20+ battlesuits at $20-30 each.

Static Tau are probably the most popular type of Tau. They rely on lots of foot troops, generally 3-4 units of Fire Warriors on foot, 2-3 units of Broadsides, a couple units of Stealth Suits or Crisis Suits, and sometimes even an Ethereal. Their goal is, basically, to pick an area on the table and hold it against anything that comes near em. For Tau, they tend to be fairly slow, as they lack the transportation options of the mobile lists (which is, actually, the primary difference between a mobile and static army), so they don’t tend to advance very far outside of their deployment zone until the later stages of the game. In terms of pure firepower, no Tau list comes close to what the static list can pour out. They’re also probably the most cost effective list, as a full unit of Fire Warriors costs less than a Hammerhead or Devilfish. However, they’re by far the least resilient of the list types, as a 4+ armor save is still usually just foddor for most anti-troop armies. The lack of heavy weapons in troop squads really hurts the Tau, and no list feels it more than a static list.

Anyway, hopefully all of this helps you. Finding an army to play is mostly about finding something that matches your playstyle. It doesn’t have to be the “Army of the Month” that just can’t seem to lose, because if you find one that matches your playstyle, you’ll be kicking the crap out of those “Army of the Month” players pretty regularly.

[USMC2USAF]

Jeremy:

I'm glad that you got a lot out of the demo game last Sunday. As you can see, Space Marine armies have a wide variety of units, forgiving of tactical errors and fun to play. While I certainly have nothing against Tyranids and Necrons, I would recommend that you explore the variety of non-codex Space Marine armies out there to expand into next before delving into a completely new realm.

The difference between Codex and non-codex Space Marine armies lie in how they are organized and fight. The Codex armies follow the strict organization and share the same types of units as laid down in the Space Marine codex book (and is epitomized by the Ultramarines chapter whose Primarch, Roboute Guilliman authored the Index Astartes... kind of like a Space Marine primer). Anyway, all the other chapters are considered non-Codex due to their divergence from the "norm" established by "the good book".

The most well-known and popular/often-played of these are:
Dark Angels (specialized units known as the Deathwing (primarily Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders)... the Ravenwing (Fast strike force loaded with bikes, Attack Bikes, and Land Speeders). Otherwise, the Dark Angels are known primarily for being a "shooty" army with a preference for plasma weapons hidden beneath their monastic robes.

Blood Angels (Dedicated Assault army. This army has a plethora of assault troop options with jump packs to get your units into hand-to-hand combat in a hurry. They are well known for their Death Company which are empassioned killers who ignore injury and have super-human strength and quickness on the charge. Furioso dreadnoughts who are kitted out for HTH as well, Baal Predator tanks which are perfect for close support. Overall, these guys are meant to get into the enemy quickly and tear them apart.)

Space Wolves (Nordic/Feral themed army with an all-around balanced army. The SWs have the True Grit special rule and can be armed to your liking without much sacrifice. Additionally, they have access to some rare unit choices like elite infiltrating scouts that enter play behind enemy lines and punch holes in the rear armour of vehicles. Or the Leman Russ Exterminator which is armed with twin-linked autocannons! Plus the army looks cool in that grey armour.)

Black Templars (Large squads and the option to take many Land Raider Crusaders. This army has some cool special characters and special rules but, they abhor aliens and psykers so you won't find any Librarians in this army. Also, if you are into the S&M scene they have a lot of chains in their motif (just serious!). :)
They do have special rules that allow you to grant your army a special vow prior to the start of the game which can be handy as well)

Other non-codex armies like the White Scars, Salamanders, Fleshtearers, are less well known or played locally but, also have some interesting options available to them.

Anyway, I believe that the wealth of diversity in a Space Marines army will be a great stepping stone for a beginning player prior to really getting into the other more specialized armies out there with the more unique rules and units associated with them.

I hope this helps and good luck!

Respectfully,
KEVIN

[JayandVarn]

This does help alot and I thank both of you for it. the problem that im facing is I just dont know my fighting style yet. it concerns me that I dont know it, but im hoping that with playing more games and using my head that I will figure out my style of play. is that how you guys learned your style? just by playing.

im just so interested and excited just to play the game now that I dont know where to begin, will sorta.

will i guess since im sitting here on my butt at work, waiting for cars to come in so that i can fix them, but not likly cause everyone CANCELED because of this storm so what i think i will do is create some army lists to the style i think i want to play... i may repost them to get your input on them, if that cool.

later,
Jeremy

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Jeremy, I would suggest you pop into the store on Friday night if you can. That's 40K night, if memory serves, and you'll be able to check out a wide range of armies and play styles. It might help you find out the type of army and style you'd like to use.

[PURGATUS]

pffft i have a car you can take a look at... you work on Dodges? if so, PM me yer company addy/number--hard to find an honest reliable mechanic for me :)

also i highly recommend you get alot more games under your belt, with it, comes the preference on assault, shooty, or the mix. USUALLY by getting ganked by one or the other! :) I play at least 3 games everytime i playtest with my usual partner.

in addition, i'd recommend sticking with the marines, for all the aforementioned reasons, but also because they can pretty much do it all. once you've decided on how you like to play, marines can be tailored to that playstyle. for a change of pace, or more extreme tactics i'd consider the other races.

which is why i'd recommend picking up the codecies, too. this way you can see your strengths versus other races and see just how awesome marines are, and more importantly, devlop tactics to defeat your opponents. and of course, drool over those units you don't have.

finally, my order of recommendation are: marines, tyranid, tau, necron. I play marines, nids and 'crons so i try not to be biased. since you're a ways off from delving into the other races i'll leave it at that. however, if you're interested, i can go into specific detail on why this order will work best for a newer player.

[JayandVarn]

oh yeah, i understand totaly why i should stick with the space killers. they are crazy. i played my first game on sunday and was amazed at there strength, of course i was playing against another space marines, but i got the picture about how good they are.

i just hope that threw the games that i play i can understand and pick up what kind of fighting style that i like. because right now im in limbo and have no idea where i want to go. i have the money to spend .....but i dont want to cause i dont know if i will stick with the style that im thinking in my head.

but anyway, i thank you all for your help and ideas in this. oh and tim, i could work on your dodge but im just trained in volvo's and really dont know about the dodges for the most part. i do know the basics for every vehicle, but it might take me a little longer to diag it. so if you want me to continue with it, let me know.

Jeremy

[WC_kenny]

space marines are pimp and there are literaly more ways to play them than any other army.

i hate nids (bad taste in my mouth since the creation of "zilla")

tau are hard to play with (so advanced players)

necrons...tough as nails, but boreing as hell

[Blackraine]

As crazy as it sounds, you might try playing some RTS games on ye olde computer. After you play something like Warcraft 3 or Supreme Commander for a couple days/weeks, start paying attention to what units you're building a lot of and what units you aren't building so many of. Then compare those to the 40k armies.

Computer games, especially when you're playing against the computer, are so relaxed that you can really figure out the kind of combat that you prefer. For instance, when I'm playing RTS games, I build a giant base with impenetrable defenses, and then start adding in a bunch of long ranged weapons coupled with fast units. That's why I play Dark Angels. I've got my strong, ultra defensive base (Deathwing), my long range (Dark Angel Devastators, Land Raiders, and Dreadnaughts), and my fast killy units (Ravenwing). I tend to do the same thing for Tau, using fast, tough units with long range. And even in Confrontation, I usually camp in my deployment zone for 2 or 3 turns buffing up, then let loose with everything I have.

Anyway, the point is, if you pick up a good RTS game, it may help you find the playstyle you like. Hrmm... maybe I should make one of those online quiz things...

[PURGATUS]

word of caution though. the 40k RTS, although awesome, will skew your view on units. the RTS makes unit work as they should i.e. Grey Knights rock... but they're not 100% the same on the tabletop :)

[Laplace]

Just to throw my 2 cents in:

Zilla nids have become popular because they are highly resilient. I blame the lack of "swarm" tactics not on the Codex itself but 4th edition which no longer blocks line of sight unless you happen to be Monsterous or a vehicle. Mix this in with the fact that small bugs against marines still can't dent them unless they are genestealers (which will get shot to pieces before they get there usually unless you run Purgatus' all-genie list) and I can understand. Not a complete excuse for zilla, but I think just about every army (except Orks) have something "cheesy" about them.

Necrons are effective and a nice starter because you don't need THAT many models, the strategy is fairly standard (shoot, get back up, shoot, get back up...) yet effective. Downside is because of the lack of variety in troops and higher cost for the most part your list will be so predictable that it might get boring to field or play against.

Space marines? Eh. I've always been generally "anti-marine" because everyone plays them. The marine variants I have (Grey Knights, World Eaters [all close combat, no shooting], etc.) aren't typical marine playstyles. And for as much as people complain about other armies, what army has it where your basic troop has a 4 statline across the board, 3+ armor, the biggest arsenal variety, high leadership, will never or hardly run off the board or get cut down, etc.

[JayandVarn]

I really didnt want to start off with marines because of the reason, everyone starts with them and plays them. yes they are high weapons, leadership, assualt, ect... but it lacks being .....unique. idk, i will shut my month cause i followed what everyone told me to start with them cause they rock in combat and shooting. ...idk, just trying to figure everything out and what not army wise, and style i want to play. but all of your thoughts are interesting to listen too.

jeremy

[DoomedToRepeatIt]

Yes, Space Marines are the most popular army. Yes, it is difficult to make your own Marines unique. But it can be done, you just have to use your imagination. Invent your own paint scheme for your own Chapter. Name your HQ guys. Write some background for own, new, unique Chapter and some of its more prominent members. Not only will this cement, in your mind, the concept of your own army's uniqueness, but if you ever start playing in Rogue Trader Tournaments, having all that background at hand will boost your overall score.

Something I did when I first started with my Chaos Marines was for the first couple of games, I took note of which specific squads and models did extremely well. Then, when I was building the fluff behind my force, I specifcally mentioned those squads/models and their heroic actions in those battles in the fluff I wrote. It seriously does help to really make your army something special, even if only to you.

[ColGreeley]

Actually I like the idea of making your own Chapter. You get to create their fluff, their color scheme, everything. As someone who has dabbled in creating his own history for 2 armies, I consider it a challenge to come up with something great. Conversions can really set an army apart from the norm as well.
Just my 2 cents worth,

[USMC2USAF]

I believe a large part of the hobby that really makes it personal and enjoyable is the ability to personalize it.

I think that is the reason why I am much more drawn to Space Marine armies and other humanoid armies because I can personalize them with individual names, histories, etc. Armies like Necrons and Tyranids are much less flexible in that manner. So, for me, those armies aren't nearly as much fun to play since I have a much more difficult time in placing myself in their shoes or fighting a battle from their point of view (although I'm sure plenty of my exes might have a different opinion in comparing me with other-wordly alien life forms). After all, I believe the 40K rulebook even makes the comparison that the HQ/Commander miniature of your army serves as "YOU" on the battlefield. An avatar or miniature representation of yourself in the actual army.

Just my two koku.... take it with a grain of rice.

Respectfully,
KEVIN