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Blackraine
04-16-2007, 03:21 PM
Having had a few months to sit and think/stew over the changes to the Dark Angels, I’ve come up with some pretty mixed feelings about the whole thing. Well… honestly, I’ve got to vent to someone. Part of the reason I haven’t played 40k since the Dark Angel codex has come out is that no matter how hard I try to tell myself that my Dark Angels are fine, I can’t help but get angry over what GW did to them. It’s not an issue of how “playable” they are, it’s an issue of them going in and wrecking the codex, derailing it completely from its previous fluff, then making up new arbitrary fluff that “existed all along” so they can make the new codex adhere to it. Anyway… 10 things I like/dislike about the new Dark Angels Codex:

Likes:

1. Deathwing can finally deepstrike better than those posers, the Imperial Fists. Seriously, Captain Lysander isn’t all that old (well… he stopped aging pretty quickly when he died, but still). He wasn’t around during the Horus Heresy. So how is it that he can figure out some new tactic that’s oh-so-much better than a chapter that’s had a Standalone Terminator Company operating independently of the rest of their Legion for the better part of 10,000 years? I’m glad GW finally one upped him and killed (or tried to kill) the whole “Lysander Wing” idea before it could take off.

2. Ravenwing finally has some offensive potential that doesn’t involve taking 3 squadrons of 3 landspeeders with assault cannons and multi-meltas.

3. Shotguns are now a viable option for assault squads. While not as flashy as the extra close combat attacks, they’re actually numerically more effective now.

4. Our veterans found the zipper on their Terminator Armor finally!

5. We have a Deathwing special character.

6. Ezekiel now gives me reasons to quote Invader Zim… “Have you the BRAIN WORMS?!”

7. It’s never been cheaper to have a fully robed Dark Angel army.

8. GW found a solution to getting rid of 5 man las/plas squads

9. Dark Angels get lots of Venerable Dreadnaughts

10. We get a jetbike with a mounted plasma cannon and twin-linked stormbolters… TAKE THAT ELDAR!

Now for the dislikes:

1. Deathwing are only available in 5 man squads. Fluff-wise, that’s actually accurate (one of the few things in the Dark Angels codex that adheres to the old fluff), so I can accept that, if that were the only negative change. Unfortunately, these 5 man squads can only have one heavy weapon. Well… that’s ok. I can accept that too, since I can still remember playing Deathwing back in the day when Assault Cannons were just short ranged, high strength heavy bolters with a chance to jam. Missiles rocked back then, and missiles still rock today… and nothing says hurty like a guy with two lightning claws and a missile launcher.

2. Dark Angels went from being the chapter with the most Land Raiders to the chapter with the least. Seriously, WTF?! I own 4 Land Raiders for a reason! I could accept the above items about Deathwing squads if I could put those deathwing squads in dedicated Land Raider transports like in the fluff. I mean, fluff-wise, Deathwing always deployed as 5 man squads mounted in Land Raiders, which is why Land Raiders were part of the First Company instead of their support companies. But now, the First Company can’t even use them without taking them as heavy supports. Meanwhile, every other Space Marine chapter can?! How did we go from fielding 17 Land Raiders in a single force org to only fielding 3? That seriously does piss me off. Fluff-wise, I could’ve sooner seen them come up with a terminator specific Land Raider variant than this.

3. Our characters are now even LESS worth it than before. Before, my Dark Angels Grandmaster had to pay around 215 points to compete with basic Grey Knight Grandmasters and Greater Daemons. But now, several things have made Dark Angels grandmasters even less admirable:

3.1 Terminator Armor no longer gives the character Terminator Honors. This is a complete reversal of Dark Angel fluff. Before, *every* Dark angels character was required to have Terminator Honors, and thus, all of them had +1 attack. Now, there isn’t even a way to GIVE them Terminator Honors, yet the cost of Terminator Armor remained the same.

3.2 The Sword of Secrets is now only available to Azrael. One of the key weapons that made Grandmasters worth it was their ability to purchase a 40 point 6 strength power weapon. Now they can’t even do that.

3.3 They’re not nearly as customizable. I only have very specific choices available to my Dark Angels grandmaster. The Power Armored grandmasters still have some leeway here, but the Terminator grandmasters don’t. Oddly enough, the Power Armored grandmasters can have 2 shooting weapons AND 2 close combat weapons, but only with certain specific choices.

As a result of all of that, I’m now stuck with a fighter that has inferior weapon choices and less attacks for the same cost as other Space Marine masters. I went from having one of the best combatants of any chapter to one of the worst. Gee, thanks GW.

4. No veteran skills. I knew they were probably going away from the squads, but I am still a bit upset at the lack of Tank Hunters for my dreadnaughts… especially given the next point.
5. More Expensive Vehicles. 15 points for Extra Armor?! More Expensive base price on Dreadnaughts?! This is reeeeetarded. A Dark Angels dreadnaught with assault cannon, smoke launchers, extra armor, a heavy flamer, and a searchlight, costs 140 points as opposed to 124 points for a same-build Space Marine Dreadnaught. A Lascannon/Missile Launcher Venerable dreadnaught costs 190+ points as opposed to a Space Marine dreadnaught of the same build (WITH TANK HUNTERS, which our dreads can’t have) for only 174 points. What are we paying for? Point 6.

6. All vehicles can include a techmarine. That’s cool. The techmarine, however, cannot have Terminator armor. Hrmm… guess I shouldn’t have spent $30 converting mine from last edition when they HAD to have Terminator Armor, huh? Moreover, our techmarines are more expensive than normal techmarines, AND we’re paying a premium on top of that to be able to include them with our vehicles. So… what? Did GW get taken over by the IRS or something? Seems like we’re getting “triple taxed” for the same ability. Couldn’t they have just included ALL of the price increase on the Techmarine so we didn’t have to pay the extra points if we weren’t taking them?

7. Scouts are Elites. Great… yet another of the armies I play falls victim to composition rules. Now I have just as many troop choices as, say, Necrons, meaning I get dinged if I don’t take enough of them, and also dinged if I make them all the same. Only, seeing as how my only two squad size choices are 5 man VP bait or 10 man squads, guess what… all of my troop choices will be 10 man squads now. Well, I guess I could waste points on an entire 10 man squad to include weapons that I don’t like, while everyone else gets away with taking 3 squads of 8, 9, and 10 men and getting around the “identical squad” penalty… sure would be nice if I had that option. Meanwhile, back to the other part about scouts being elite… what makes them so elite? Cool shotguns? Ok, sure, why not. Oh wait, because I already have troop squads with bolters for that. But it’d be a bit nicer if, say, they had some sort of special “super infiltration” rule, or teleport homers, or something… you know, something that would warrant me using one of my 3 elite slots on them?

8. The new Dark Angels are designed around combined arms. Well, that’s great. Only, the whole POINT of Ravenwing and Deathwing was to fight as standalone forces. I shouldn’t need Ravenwing to make my Deathwing effective. According to GW, Dark Angels have “always” fought like this. Well… it’s like that, only completely different.

9. Grandmaster of the Deathwing is neither grand, nor a master of anything. Yet, I’m forced to take this nancy-boy of a commander if I want to field a Deathwing army now. This nancy-boy commander with a pitiful 3 attacks (low by pre-new-codex Dark Angel standards). Oh, but that’s cool, I can give him a master crafted power weapon! WOOO! Big spendin’ there! Seriously… why even put that in there? Obviously the only real choice is between the Lightning claws (so you can have 4 whole attacks), or the Thunder Hammer/storm shield. Couldn’t GW have put a bit more thought into making him something other than “Generic_Commander_001”? I mean, you’ve got the Grandmaster of the Ravenwing cruising around in either a flying land raider or a Jetbike with guns sticking out of every crevasse, you’ve got Azrael with a 6 str power weapon and a midget to carry his 4+ invulnerable save pimp hat, and you’ve got Ezekiel with the Mind Worm (have you the BRAIN WORMS?!) spell. And then… you’ve got the Grandmaster of the Deathwing. What, did they just run out of ideas?

10. They got rid of Azmodai. That makes me cry, really. Azmodai was, like, the best character ever. His fluff was awesome, he’s got a whole book about him (kinda), and they ditched him?! Maybe they should’ve made HIM the Grandmaster of the Deathwing!

mega_doomed
04-16-2007, 11:59 PM
That makes me a sad panda...

Seriously, I'm a little weary of what is to come of my Space Wolves, and the Chaos army I had been starting.

Rorschach
04-17-2007, 09:55 AM
I'm not seeing many reasons at all to play Dark Angels, unless you're hooked on Ravenwing. Why you're charged extra for Heroes with less abilities is mind boggling.
And I agree on the complete reversal of background orthodoxy. "It's always been this way..." BOLLOCKS!
No wonder 1984 and V FOR VENDETTA were written about Britain. They seem inordinately fond of that crap.

Here's me just waiting on BA's or Space Wolves...

Blackraine
04-17-2007, 10:12 AM
Honestly, my *only* reason is because I am, and always will be, a Deathwing player. That being said, I'm finding more and more reasons to work on my Thousand Sons or play Warmachine or Hordes lately....

MyMyst8k
04-17-2007, 10:21 AM
Here's me just waiting on BA's or Space Wolves...

You may not have to wait long for the Blood Angels. According to the rumors out there, they are getting a White Dwarf update in the next few months. Here's a link to a thread at DakkaDakka:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/postid/156957/view/topic/Default.aspx

Warmaster
04-17-2007, 10:28 AM
A couple of comments or food for thought. The space marine redux will happen and it will probably include a lot of the things you are complaining about point's wise.

1.) Right now assault cannon armed model's are too cheap. Hence the effectiveness of an all assault cannon list. So those things that take them are going to take price hit.

2.) Don't know if you've seen the rumors about the Blood Angels update, but current rumors hold that they will be switched to the combat squads rule too. I think combat squads will become standard for most of the marine lists. The only ones I see getting around it are Space Wolves and Templars.

3.) I agree about scouts, I don't know what they were thinking there.

4.) I don't understand the terminator honors thing either. That's just odd.

5.) The new veteran squad is but nasty.

6.) 95 point predators, omg that is a great deal.

7.) The identical troop thing was just an idea and we nixed it based on feedback from the board.

8.) For building a generic list for all comers I think the combat squad is flipping awesome. For tournament play it will do wonders. I think the 10 man squad with the razorback will be utterly nasty. Against nid's you leave the 10 man squad together and shoot every turn as they run across the table. Against guard load up all the 5 man squads with the power weapons and rush them across the table as you continue to pound things with your heavy weapons, etc. Space Wolf Long fangs? Ehh, who needs them now you can take one heavy support with 4 lascannons and split it into 2 squads of 5 models. yes it's expensive but it gives you three guys of flack before you get to a las cannon.

Blackraine
04-17-2007, 10:40 AM
I guess part of my problem is the time I've been spending thinking about Warmachine lately. GW, in general, really seems to have their head up their asses compared to Privateer Press. With Warmachine, everyones' updates come out at around the same time (They're releasing a Hordes book and a Warmachine book within about 3 months of each other, covering every army released).

I wouldn't have such a hard time with the Dark Angels changes, honestly, if the rest of the Space Marines were changed at the same time. Instead, it's probably going to be close to a year for the Space Marine Codex II, which means close to a year of Dark Angels being the absolute wimpyest chapter.

GW could solve a lot of problems if, when they get around to 5th Edition eventually, they finish all of the 5th Edition codicies prior to releasing the 5th Edition rules, then release the Codicies one or two a month over the course of a single year. There won't be nearly as much power creep/power gap that way, and they won't find themselves having to redo the entire Space Marine Codex simply because they turned out to be more powerful than intended, as they'll have all the other Codicies around to compare against.

Rorschach
04-17-2007, 11:10 AM
I wouldn't have such a hard time with the Dark Angels changes, honestly, if the rest of the Space Marines were changed at the same time. Instead, it's probably going to be close to a year for the Space Marine Codex II, which means close to a year of Dark Angels being the absolute wimpyest chapter.

This is a huge issue, IMHO. Why "experiment" on just one Chapter at a time? And it's insane that they're ALREADY printing yet another SM Core codex. Were those 3 years getting the last one ready just not enough?


GW could solve a lot of problems if, when they get around to 5th Edition eventually, they finish all of the 5th Edition codicies prior to releasing the 5th Edition rules, then release the Codicies one or two a month over the course of a single year.

Back in the 90's, this seemed to be the way they'd do it. I remember 4-6 codices and 4-66 Warhammer army books in a single year being a standard at one point. And frankly, with the low level of change that occurs form book to book, and the vast FAQ still remaining after, there's no reason they couldn't do it faster. They're just not up to it on the writing/design side. And they have this insane need to redo an entire mini line with each release.
Yes, I know the cyclical needs of the hobby to keep the company in business. But this goes way beyond that into simple insult and exploitation of the customer.

When GW does something I truly like, I'll buy it. But they disappoint so far.
I will have to get that BA White Dwarf though - sounds promising.

-D

WC_kenny
04-17-2007, 11:46 PM
According to Jervis this is the way hes pushing 40k...simplify the options to promote battle tactics.....only one tourny truely matters every year...adepticon.....

5 reasons im building a competetive DA list...which i have already play tested to great success

1: Combat Squads (hmmm devastators are outta control now, and raven wing assault squads are 4 scoring units?)
2: Bikers all have the scout ability....and tele homers
3: Death Wing Assault (holy crap u mean i can bring my squads in on turn 1...and my bikes can pin point them into your deploment zone?)
4: assault weapons in termy squads....(i'll gladly replace my 2 assault cannons for a guy with lightning claes and cyclone launcher)
5: standard of the death wing.....(so i can just stand there and you charge me...but its like i charged you?)

Ze_Sexy
04-18-2007, 09:58 AM
I just want to say that space marines are spoiled! I understand and for the most part I agree with your complaints, but holy crap you get a lot of stuff!

Just to point something out, the hive tyrant only starts with 3 attacks, and tops out at 5. His armor isn't nearly as good either.

You have a tank that can carry 10 guys, has the only front hatch in the game, has 2 lascannons, and 14 armor all around, and you're complaining that you can only take three of them? Wish I could take even 1. It is still one of the best vehicles out there.

It sucks that they changed the fluff so much, and the scouts make no sense, but you still have a codex full of really great units, and the army still looks really effective. So what if the other armies get cooler toys.

Rorschach
04-18-2007, 10:27 AM
In general, I like Jervis' new Game Philosophy, and the way he's trying to push GW. I just wish it wasn't done so piecemeal.

I miss the Outrider program too...

DoomedToRepeatIt
04-18-2007, 11:25 AM
I think I'll stick with my 12-man-capacity, glancing-hits-only, no-greater-than-Strength 8, skimmer APC. Space Marines are spoiled, yes, but only the Eldar eat Velveeta every day.

Rorschach
04-18-2007, 11:35 AM
I think I'll stick with my 12-man-capacity, glancing-hits-only, no-greater-than-Strength 8, skimmer APC. Space Marines are spoiled, yes, but only the Eldar eat Velveeta every day.

Yeah, cause a 165pt+ transport is oh so effective...

I'll trade you for a 55pt Rhino everyday.

Warmaster
04-18-2007, 11:45 AM
Actually the new dark angels rhino is way cheaper than 55, and you shouldn't post point's values dale ;-)

Blackraine
04-18-2007, 11:45 AM
Yeah, but Rhinos can't blow up land raiders or mow down entire squads of Terminators...

Rorschach
04-18-2007, 02:30 PM
Yeah, but Rhinos can't blow up land raiders or mow down entire squads of Terminators...

Neither can a single TL Starcannon... :-)

If the Eldar are so advanced, why can't then have a transport that just transports, and a Tank that just shoots guns? Design101 , Boneseers!

Blackraine
04-18-2007, 02:41 PM
Yeah, but add in a Shuriken cannon and at least you've got the shots to make it feasible.

Laplace
04-18-2007, 02:53 PM
I echo the one comment that the change to 1 AC per squad was to deter the all-termie army with min 5-man squads w/ 2 ACs in each one. That I'm perfectly cool with.

As a more general comment, what I am miffed in general is that the Space Marines and variants (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, etc) are all supposed to be on the same "team" right? Then why can't they share their equipment/abilities??

I mean, look at Grey Knights for example, the creme-de-le-creme of the Space Marines. Yet they get hosed in just about every way gear-wise. No bikes, no speeders, no transports except a LR or LRC. Heck, even worse: No plasma, no manned lascannons or assault cannons, etc. Oh, and did I mention no traits or veteran skills?

The only thing I did find "impressive" in the new DA codex was the DS ability on turn 1 of some of the termies. That combined with a homer placed in the right area can be a nice combo (can you put a homer on something with a scout move?)

Blackraine
04-18-2007, 03:12 PM
That's ok, the Grey Knights make up for it by having characters with 200+ points of gear that start at 145 points... and can then add another 100 points of gear to their already impressive kit. Strength 6 force weapon?!

But yeah, Dark angels do have some nifty toys, which is why I put the 10 things I liked about the codex first... they definitely get neat stuff. Part of my annoyance is the inability to *give* a unit much of anything. Teleport homers, for instance... sure the Ravenwing has them, which is cool, because they also have the Scout ability. But what if I want to give them to, say, scouts with infiltrate? Well... I can't. In fact, the only way I can HAVE teleport homers is to pay 120 points (or, more like 220 points since I want them to survive a turn of shooting) for a Ravenwing bike squad. And I'm not saying that's not effective or anything like that. In fact, it's darn awesomely effective, especially if I pay for two squads (which still gives me enough points for 5 Deathwing squads and the Master of the Deathwing at 1850 points). But it's kind of like I said before... the point of Deathwing and Ravenwing is that they can each fight as a standalone army. I shouldn't need Ravenwing units to make my Deathwing units effective.

Ze_Sexy
04-18-2007, 04:16 PM
As a more general comment, what I am miffed in general is that the Space Marines and variants (Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, etc) are all supposed to be on the same "team" right? Then why can't they share their equipment/abilities??

I'm crying on the inside for all of the Grey Knights that can't take bikes. There's a reason why no army can take everything. Even if they are on the same "team."

Tyranids should get bikes though. Genestealers on bikes. You know you want a squad.

WC_kenny
04-18-2007, 04:40 PM
thats ridiculous

Warmaster
04-18-2007, 04:54 PM
I miss the genestealer cult list. I always wanted to pimp out some limo's and have them on the battlefield. :)

But back on topic. has anyone else noticed that with the new points in the da book that a 10 man squad with a vet sergeant costs exactly the same as a 10 man squad with a vet sergeant in the space marine codex, but they all come with bolt pistols, frag, and krak?

I'm just saying think about it. All of a sudden a tactical squad can pull out pistol's shoot ya and then run in for two attack's a piece.

WC_kenny
04-18-2007, 04:57 PM
yep....pimp ness to the max....aint nothing wrong with the da codex

Blackraine
04-19-2007, 07:47 AM
Character's aside, I'm not questioning the competitive nature of the Codex. I'm questioning the reasoning behind the changes and the 180 degree reversals on fluff. I'm not, and never have been, interested in whether my army was viable at tournaments. I'm interested in armies for their fluff and for their look.

ColGreeley
04-19-2007, 07:49 AM
Tyranids on Big Wheels. Or better yet, Green Machines!

WC_kenny
04-19-2007, 10:32 AM
i felt that the dodex is very fluffy....combat squads show their dedication to orthidox tactics....plasma cannons are 15 points while las cannons are 20 points...which promotes the use of the plasma cannon.....85% of the book is devoted to story telling......the tactical marine is more elite then most veterens...over all the book is solid on fluff

Edge
04-19-2007, 10:56 AM
I think it was "changing history" more than "lacking fluff" that has Mike up in arms.

Blackraine
04-19-2007, 10:56 AM
Other than that it's a dramatic change from the pre-4th edition Dark Angels. Lion El Johnson was unorthodox if anything, using his Ravenwing and Deathwing as the Hammer and Anvil with which he crushed his enemies. While other chapters followed the "orthodox" tactics of deploying via drop-pod, Lion El Johnson preferred deploying most everything via Thunderhawk Gunship. This allowed for more precision drops, and better tactical adaptation to ground conditions. It's also why the Deathwing deployed in 5 man units mounted in Land Raiders... Land Raiders could be dropped from Thunderhawk Dropships into a forward position which the Deathwing could then take and hold.

The Ravenwing and Deathwing rarely worked together as a team. The Ravenwing was almost always scouting ahead of the main drop force, identifying future targets and then moving on. By the time the Deathwing got there, the Ravenwing were long gone. The Deathwing's job, on the other hand, was to take an objective and hold it.

I guess my definition of Fluffy is just different. It's not a question of whether or not GW was able to come up with story-related reasons for what they did in the codex... it's more a question of whether those story-related reasons are actually in keeping with the story told prior to the Codex. My assertion is that it isn't, and that GW did a "spin job" in trying to make it "look" like a Dark Angels codex while at the same time completely reversing a lot of key plot points that made the Dark Angels, and their specialized companies, what they were.

WC_kenny
04-19-2007, 11:18 AM
well its still got some of that...terms cant even take drop pods in DA...so that surley represents their distain for the things...plus the point increase